General & Others Who still thinks Zoro surpasses Oden this arc ?
- Thread starter Kuro Ashi
- Start date
Oda is vague on purpose on that SBS ,he goes and says that the serialization doesn't end in the SBS,yet Luffy's adventure is though.
Great adventure in his old comment = most interesting part of Luffy's adventure.
What is One piece exactly? = Raftel arc and last part of the great adventure ,because there is where we will learn what One Piece is. Final where is after we learn what One piece is .
Great adventure in his old comment = most interesting part of Luffy's adventure.
What is One piece exactly? = Raftel arc and last part of the great adventure ,because there is where we will learn what One Piece is. Final where is after we learn what One piece is .
weed weed. 
Who said Shiryuu is stronger than Zoro?
All of Zoro's 1 vs 1 opponents postskip have been considerably below his level, why would Shiryuu be any different?
All of Zoro's 1 vs 1 opponents postskip have been considerably below his level, why would Shiryuu be any different?
I didn't claim Zoro will low dif Shiryuu, I was challenging the notion that Shiryuu must be of necessity stronger than Post Wano Zoro. I don't currently have high expectations for Shiryuu. He'll be a top tier to avoid getting low diffed by Post Wano Zoro, but nothing more.
The amazing Zoro fight will be Zoro vs Mihawk.
The amazing Zoro fight will be Zoro vs Mihawk.
Ofcourse, but This is the last pirate crew SH will face. Shillew was hyped to be relative to Megallan and then Oda had Megallan neg diff BB whole crew. He then had Shillew say he would of left if BB didn't get WB fruit. Showing Shillew didn't think BB was the shit. Shillew is 2 years stronger and got a DF. In his hands, it will be OP, Oda said DF depends on user.
You're downgrading Oden's hype significantly with this though.
If your argument is that Oden was dealing with a significantly weaker Kaido, and on top of that never faced the Hybrid form of a significantly weaker Kaido, but the much weaker in comparison Dragon/Human forms, then you're taking so much away from Oden's hype he becomes way less of an impressive benchmark.
I question that the version of Oden you're talking about is even meant to be a top tier.
Now for this part of your argument for why Zoro surpasses Oden
I take issue with the wording on the last point though, since what Kaido said that a monster samurai like Oden will never be born again. Zoro only needs to prove Kaido that such a samurai was born again. It's a matter of Kaido acknowledging not just his current strength but also his potential.
If your argument is that Oden was dealing with a significantly weaker Kaido, and on top of that never faced the Hybrid form of a significantly weaker Kaido, but the much weaker in comparison Dragon/Human forms, then you're taking so much away from Oden's hype he becomes way less of an impressive benchmark.
I question that the version of Oden you're talking about is even meant to be a top tier.
Now for this part of your argument for why Zoro surpasses Oden
- Zoro didn't inherit Oden's sword
- And thus his will
- Zoro wasn't foreshadowed to accomplish something Oden could never do
- Zoro wasn't fighting Kaido
- Kaido wasn't looking for a monster samurai on par with Oden
I take issue with the wording on the last point though, since what Kaido said that a monster samurai like Oden will never be born again. Zoro only needs to prove Kaido that such a samurai was born again. It's a matter of Kaido acknowledging not just his current strength but also his potential.
Oden told Kaido to "build his strength". This Kaido is meant to be stronger than the Kaido Oden fought.
All of these are tied into Kaido's desire to die at the hands of the Samurai bearing Oden's mantle. These come with an expiration date on Kaido's defeat.
All of them are tied to Oden's unfulfilled will and Kaido's Oden trauma; they expire when Kaido is defeated.
Nah, Kaido wants to die at the hands of a monster samurai on par with Oden. When the Scabbards attacked him with Togen Totsuka he said he saw in them the visage of Kozuki Oden. That with every throb of his scar, he remembers. He could have let them kill him, but they are not Oden. A monster samurai of his like will never be seen again. Their wound was too shallow. They don't even have power to open up the old scar. They cannot do it.
It's not about recognising potential. Kaido literally wants to die at the hands of the samurai bearing Oden's mantle.
- Kaido already had his invincible hype 20 years ago
- He appears to have been a Yonkou for several decades
- Kaido placed Oden on par with the Greats
All of these are tied into Kaido's desire to die at the hands of the Samurai bearing Oden's mantle. These come with an expiration date on Kaido's defeat.
- Kaido can't acknowledge Zoro as Oden's equal after he's defeated
- Kaido can't get closure on the emotional scar Oden gave him after he's defeated
- Zoro can't fulfill Oden's will if he's not responsible for Kaido's defeat
- Blackening a sword may have some connection to fulfilling the will of the sword
All of them are tied to Oden's unfulfilled will and Kaido's Oden trauma; they expire when Kaido is defeated.
Nah, Kaido wants to die at the hands of a monster samurai on par with Oden. When the Scabbards attacked him with Togen Totsuka he said he saw in them the visage of Kozuki Oden. That with every throb of his scar, he remembers. He could have let them kill him, but they are not Oden. A monster samurai of his like will never be seen again. Their wound was too shallow. They don't even have power to open up the old scar. They cannot do it.
It's not about recognising potential. Kaido literally wants to die at the hands of the samurai bearing Oden's mantle.
Oden told Kaido to "build his strength". This Kaido is meant to be stronger than the Kaido Oden fought.
All of these are tied into Kaido's desire to die at the hands of the Samurai bearing Oden's mantle. These come with an expiration date on Kaido's defeat.
All of them are tied to Oden's unfulfilled will and Kaido's Oden trauma; they expire when Kaido is defeated.
Nah, Kaido wants to die at the hands of a monster samurai on par with Oden. When the Scabbards attacked him with Togen Totsuka he said he saw in them the visage of Kozuki Oden. That with every throb of his scar, he remembers. He could have let them kill him, but they are not Oden. A monster samurai of his like will never be seen again. Their wound was too shallow. They don't even have power to open up the old scar. They cannot do it.
It's not about recognising potential. Kaido literally wants to die at the hands of the samurai bearing Oden's mantle.
- Kaido already had his invincible hype 20 years ago
- He appears to have been a Yonkou for several decades
- Kaido placed Oden on par with the Greats
All of these are tied into Kaido's desire to die at the hands of the Samurai bearing Oden's mantle. These come with an expiration date on Kaido's defeat.
- Kaido can't acknowledge Zoro as Oden's equal after he's defeated
- Kaido can't get closure on the emotional scar Oden gave him after he's defeated
- Zoro can't fulfill Oden's will if he's not responsible for Kaido's defeat
- Blackening a sword may have some connection to fulfilling the will of the sword
All of them are tied to Oden's unfulfilled will and Kaido's Oden trauma; they expire when Kaido is defeated.
Nah, Kaido wants to die at the hands of a monster samurai on par with Oden. When the Scabbards attacked him with Togen Totsuka he said he saw in them the visage of Kozuki Oden. That with every throb of his scar, he remembers. He could have let them kill him, but they are not Oden. A monster samurai of his like will never be seen again. Their wound was too shallow. They don't even have power to open up the old scar. They cannot do it.
It's not about recognising potential. Kaido literally wants to die at the hands of the samurai bearing Oden's mantle.
Let's say significantly stronger means Kaido is now 30% stronger.
Let's say that Hybrid Kaido is twice as strong as base Kaido.
Let's say the Kaido that fought Oden was a 9.
That means that base Kaido now is a 12, and Hybrid Kaido is a 24.
How do you go from a 9 to a 24, and keep them both within the top tier range ?
There's a huge difference, so Oden becomes way less of a relevant benchmark beyond the trauma factor that Kaido kept with him, in spite of growing that much stronger since then.
Zoro's never going to get a 1 vs 1 fight that ends with him defeating Kaido and killing him, so that we can forget about. The one defeating Kaido is Luffy, Zoro is there to help and open the scar.
Even in the case where you propose that he has to be the one who kills Kaido, it still does not come packaged with him defeating Kaido. That would be Luffy's doing, so then would Kaido not want more to die at the hands of the one who defeated him? You can say Luffy is not a swordsman, but didn't Kaido specificaly look at Luffy and see Oden among the others when talking about how far Luffy's ceiling could go ?
I think Zoro's utmost contribution will be the opening of the scar. That's what the Scabbards were unable to do, and that could be what allows Luffy to force his victory against Kaido. I don't think Kaido dies, but even in the case where he is defeated by Luffy, and then Zoro kills a defeated Kaido, is that proof of surpassing Oden ?
That would imply Oden had someone else defeat Kaido for him, but then failed to kill a defeated Kaido. And that's obviously not how it went back then. It would be more like, he's the only other Samurai that could have killed Kaido after Oden, but that could also mean he's the next best thing and only one who can overall match and eventually surpass Oden, instead of evidence that he has already surpassed him.
Well apparently this Kaido if you account for strength boost and Hybrid can probably mid diff two Kaido's of same thrength to the one Oden went against.
So that Kaido looks way less impressive, and in turn Oden looks way less impressive. And if we push for that and a way less impressive Oden, then sure, i guess he can be surpassed this arc
So that Kaido looks way less impressive, and in turn Oden looks way less impressive. And if we push for that and a way less impressive Oden, then sure, i guess he can be surpassed this arc
I am not doing this. The reason Oden didn't fight Hybrid Kaido is because Oda didn't want to spoil the Hybrid form.
I think Oden could have matched the Hybrid form of the old Kaido.
The main indication that current Kaido is stronger is Oden telling him to build his strength. The Hybrid form and a possible awakening are just supporting pieces of evidence.
I don't believe this. I mean it's fine for you to believe Luffy solely defeats Kaido, but I don't.
Like you're acting as if Luffy defeating Kaido is a shared assumption — it's not — I think Kaido's defeat would probably be a tag team between Zoro and Luffy.
Zoro doesn't kill a defeated Kaido. If Zoro kills Kaido, it's the killing blow that defeats him. Again, I don't share your assumption that Luffy defeats Kaido. It's fine to have that assumption, but you can't debate from the basis of it.
You can't argue: "Luffy defeats Kaido, therefore X therefore Zoro doesn't surpass Oden". I don't agree that Luffy defeats Kaido by himself.
I think you're wrong about Zoro opening the scar. I don't think Zoro will even bother with Oden's scar. The Scabbards targeted Oden's scar using Oden's move. Zoro doesn't have Oden's move, nor does he know anything about the scar. He's not going to be targeting Kaido's scar.
This is moot anyway, I expect Kaido to explicitly acknowledge Zoro, so this entire contention will be pointless.
I think Oden could have matched the Hybrid form of the old Kaido.
The main indication that current Kaido is stronger is Oden telling him to build his strength. The Hybrid form and a possible awakening are just supporting pieces of evidence.
I don't believe this. I mean it's fine for you to believe Luffy solely defeats Kaido, but I don't.
Like you're acting as if Luffy defeating Kaido is a shared assumption — it's not — I think Kaido's defeat would probably be a tag team between Zoro and Luffy.
Zoro doesn't kill a defeated Kaido. If Zoro kills Kaido, it's the killing blow that defeats him. Again, I don't share your assumption that Luffy defeats Kaido. It's fine to have that assumption, but you can't debate from the basis of it.
You can't argue: "Luffy defeats Kaido, therefore X therefore Zoro doesn't surpass Oden". I don't agree that Luffy defeats Kaido by himself.
I think you're wrong about Zoro opening the scar. I don't think Zoro will even bother with Oden's scar. The Scabbards targeted Oden's scar using Oden's move. Zoro doesn't have Oden's move, nor does he know anything about the scar. He's not going to be targeting Kaido's scar.
This is moot anyway, I expect Kaido to explicitly acknowledge Zoro, so this entire contention will be pointless.
So if Zoro kills Kaido, it's the killing blow that defeats him.
So Zoro and not Luffy defeats Kaido, after Zoro and Luffy tag team Kaido. This is you belief ?
So how about Oda saying that he will have to find a way for Luffy to defeat Kaido that goes beyond Luffy just punching really hard ?
My stance is that Zoro helps Luffy by opening Kaido's scar. The way to defeat Kaido then is for Luffy to push on the injury created by Zoro as a weak spot on Kaido's body.
No contradiction here. Luffy still defeats Kaido, and it's not just by punching harder, but by making the most out of Zoro's efforts of opening Kaido's scar.
You just straight out think that Zoro defeats Kaido. The solution Oda finds is not to have Luffy defeat Kaido at all.
So Zoro and not Luffy defeats Kaido, after Zoro and Luffy tag team Kaido. This is you belief ?
So how about Oda saying that he will have to find a way for Luffy to defeat Kaido that goes beyond Luffy just punching really hard ?
My stance is that Zoro helps Luffy by opening Kaido's scar. The way to defeat Kaido then is for Luffy to push on the injury created by Zoro as a weak spot on Kaido's body.
No contradiction here. Luffy still defeats Kaido, and it's not just by punching harder, but by making the most out of Zoro's efforts of opening Kaido's scar.
You just straight out think that Zoro defeats Kaido. The solution Oda finds is not to have Luffy defeat Kaido at all.
