General & Others Zoro s confirmed to be the deuteragonist.
- Thread starter L57
- Start date
Why do you think the author is wrong ?
Not every website, you have to find the good ressources. But most website on storytelling are just repeating generic informations yeah
Not necessary no
Today ?
Not every website, you have to find the good ressources. But most website on storytelling are just repeating generic informations yeah
Not necessary no
Today ?
As of now, all you got is this Ls.
Even my 10 years old niece can make more sense out of the story than you
I do pay attention of your nonsense; as much as you're spewing garbage, I do try to debunk what my other debater talks about.
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
I do pay attention of your nonsense; as much as you're spewing garbage, I do try to debunk what my other debater talks about.
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
@Sentinel bud you're wasting your energy.
I wouldn't have said anything if opponent you were debating was debating with valid points.
You're up against the type of Erkan and Logiko.
You are literally wasting your energy
I wouldn't have said anything if opponent you were debating was debating with valid points.
You're up against the type of Erkan and Logiko.
You are literally wasting your energy
I do pay attention of your nonsense; as much as you're spewing garbage, I do try to debunk what my other debater talks about.
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
Nah, discussions with nik were a bit longer.
3 steps FS was one of them iirc.
It's the last post. Whatever he writes next, is his concern. I represented all facts and definitions which crumbles Logiko's fragile reality.
3 steps FS was one of them iirc.
Post automatically merged:
Bruh... The essay-long replies are behind us, we are too old for this shit...
I do pay attention of your nonsense; as much as you're spewing garbage, I do try to debunk what my other debater talks about.
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
Personal feelings or opinions cannot be objective but I'm sure a self-proclaimed literature expert like you would have already known it. You believe G5 is the best thing in fiction -> It is your opinion. It isn't based on facts, scientific researches or plain data. Again, throwing fancy words around to look extra smart, you're such a dummy.
An objective fact would be to say G5 is based on Toonforce because Oda took inspiration from few Looney Tunes scenes - then you present the first evidence of Luffy influencing reality and the second evidence of his moves being identical to, let's say, Tom and Jerry.
Sure, keep convincing yourself those sweet words if it makes you sleep better at night.
LMAO 3.0
LMAO 4.0
I pulled definitions of 3 different websites and you're still yapping some crap like a retard. Just like I explained in my previous post, Zoro perfectly fits the role as a sidekick when it comes to deuteragonists. Nobody but you is fixated on the origin which is ancient greeks play.
The reality of the story is that Zoro is the deuteragonist, second lead of the strawhats, the nr. 2 and his goal has a wide narrative purpose with the entire blade concept.
That's the funniest part about it: You're not having an agenda, so you genuinely believe the horseshit you're spewing here.
Bartolomeo is a simple ally. Law is a simple ally. Marco is a simple ally.
Zoro is not an ally, he is Luffy's right hand man. In a magazine, he was put on par with all the other right hand men: Bepo, Shiryu, King, Katakuri, etc. Get your facts straight.
Yeah, only in your lala world full of rainbows.
Now you have to give reasons why Oda didn't use this concept. Zoro is Ryuma's descendant, a lot of the weapon building is based on the very same weapons which Zoro will forge to make them the strongest at the end of the story. He also One Piece very popular along with Luffy, he was his first support network before even Nami.
It's correct, Zoro is the deuteragonist in the story and the closest link to Luffy when it comes to "sidekicks". Only because Blackbeard influenced the plot in a higher and better way, doesn't mean the narrative despicts Zoro as quite irrelevant because it is not simply the case. When Luffy fails, guess who will take his role? It's Zoro. That's why other characters often mistook Zoro as the captain.
Yes, because your argument is stupid. It's like comparing Moriarty is more important than Watson and because of that, Watson cannot be the deuteragonist. You're chatting shit.
Who. The. Fuck. Cares? It's obvious people don't use it in the same context as the ancient greeks did...
It does have a meaning, I just posted several sources of it lmao. Oda is wrong, several other websites are wrong, people are being ignorant, several modern literature do it wrong but that one unemployed furry bitch is completely right and knows better than the author. Dude, the fucking audacity, it's so annoying dealing with you because there is no justifying case why you're so arrogantly behaving like that.
Who says that? I give you the benefit of the doubt to provide evidence for your claims. Search for other websites, show some scientific researches of why it can only be applied by a three actors play.
Again, throwing random BS. Just say you have no argument because you're dodging my arguments like Neo is dodging bullets in Matrix.
So? Are you gonna keep crying about it?
There is just only one role of the nr. 2 and it is Zoro. So you're objectively wrong that all strawhats are equal in terms of importance in the story. A crew needs its vice captain as much as the captain.
Oda begs to differ when he put Zoro as the number 2 in the official magazine. Lucci knew, he can't scratch the Yonko's balls, so he aimed a bit lower at the crew hierarchy, thus trying to battle the Nr. 2 of the crew instead.
Yes, each crew member has its own unique trait but a crew is based on hierarchy and both Luffy and Zoro are the peak and "coincidentally" both also only have the qualities of a fighter.
Funnily enough, only when both Luffy and Zoro weren't there, Nami and Sanji started commanding the other crew members, evidently in the Zou arc. But when Zoro is there? In dire situations, he had the words and often convinced the captain to think through his decision.
I found some sources which confirm the opposite, yet again:
Source Nr. 1.
Seven Basic Plots.
Six Basic Plots.
So either all these websites are capping shit or you are simply wrong again.
This is such a stupid statement considering we have different genres and often, they are all so wide and complex: Even among the same genres, there are clear differences in some stories. You're trying to compare the human skeleton to a random animal and say it's equal which wouldn't work.
Cool story bro but again, you can't generalize all fictional stories and believe they follow the same structure, lol.
Like, Gintama and One Piece function fundamentally so different even though, both mangas are shounen.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
Sasuke: Deuteragonist who acts as the rival. The final antagonist is Kaguya.
Vegeta: Yep, antagonist turned to deuteragonist.
Lucy: So she's a deuteragonist...
Megumi is from JJK.
Watson: Thus, he can be a deuteragonist as well.
I don't even know your entire issue in this thread. This is basically you in a nutshell:
You're so lost.
I'm asking you how is Zoro damaging all these basic rules which you keep bringing up in this discussion? Shouldn't be that difficult to answer.
Self-proclaimed expert who is... oddly wrong about everything in this forum.
Sure, sure...
Is it? I don't think so.
Please no, you're already overwhelmed by this topic. Better stick to it.
Correct, as it should be... wait, what? Sasuke isn't the main antagonist of the story, Sasuke vs Naruto was merely the epilogue of this manga when both came to a conclusion when both ideals coexisted.
Or deuteragonist means just like all the websites described it to be: secondary MCs who can fit into 3 respective roles in fictional stories.
Yours is not simply correct, no matter how much you bitch and cry about it. Genos is even a far worse sidekick than Zoro as he wasn't created to make the manga more popular, his existence isn't there to rival the MC and his goal doesn't affect the entire weapon structure of the world building.
So it's still not enough for you!
Why should I? Were Nami and Sanji compared to Luffy back in Whiskey Peak? Throughout the whole story, there wasn't a moment when Luffy greatly surpassed Zoro like that. Also, Captain > Vice Captain/Nr. 2 > regular crew members.
Nami maybe, Usopp isn't. Like I said, Zoro and Nami were the first characters aiding Luffy to his adventure and they were literally the reason why the Strawhat crew exists now, even moreso for Zoro because like I said, first member.
Who says this?
It isn't status, it's part of the narration. In crucial moments when Luffy had to make a choice to take Usopp back, Zoro confronted Luffy's authority and explained why he should behave as a proper captain and made sure to the other crew members why they should respect their own captain. Usopp had to learn it the hard way to ask for forgiveness. You think other strawhats would take this role while Zoro is present?
Dude, are you stupid for real? Blackbeard is the ANTAGONIST. Being the second most important MC next to the protagonist doesn't mean the antagonist cannot be more important to the story...
Nah, it's just the matter of your lack of reading comprehension and sheer ignorance to accept when you're being wrong.
Nami isn't a fucking fighter you donkey...
Lol, that's why you couldn't refute it.
Alright.
The difference? Afaik, Luffy's lineage isn't even in a SBS (not that it wouldn't be confirmed later on btw).
Again, it doesn't matter because a lack of proper character development doesn't mean Zoro isn't the most important character besides Luffy in the crew.
Which development did Sanji receive? Being a bigger perv compared to his pre ts version?
Go ahead. I'm sure you find panels of Chopper fighting along with Luffy, Kidd, Law and Killer against two Yonko, being declared part of the "little monsters of the current generation".
His primary role in the crew is being the fighter - now when it comes to crew hierarchy, that's when his other role comes in handy because his words ultimately have more authority than the others but Luffy. It's all part of how Zoro is written and implemented into the story.
Like I said, I don't deny that all strawhats have their own individual role but come on, it is a difference if Nami leads the crew in dire weather conditions because her words as a navigator clearly rescues their lives or if Zoro sees a discrepancy in the crew and acts accordingly, for example when his own Captain isn't behaving accordingly (no gag moment btw).
That's basically your goofy ass: "Zoro is not more important than the others; his role as a vice captain is simply to be this." LMAO.
Nope, I didn't do it. That's your triggered ass.
Yes, you do. You are even comparing Blackbeard with Zoro which is futile since Blackbeard is the antagonist. Zoro is the deuteragonist and Luffy is the protagonist. It's only you making it more complicated than it is intented to be and falsely believe all posters follow an agenda. For the average Zoro fan, yes, they follow an agenda but I don't follow it, same as Reborn or comrade.
Nothing says he is the guardian you donut. In fact, Oda went his way to solve this misunderstanding when declaring Zoro's role in the story, being the secondary MC who rises the popularity of the manga. To this day, did this structure change at all? Be honest.
LMFAO, just say it completely rendered your argument useless.
Idk what is it but I feel it is a very concerning fact that I'm on the receiving end getting sarcastic comments from YOU of all people, lol.
There is no way you're serious right? Are you that oblivious to the fact how you're presenting in this thread? He says "Why do you seek to complicate things that don't need to be complicated" DUUUDE...
I did; you just came up with bullshit scenarios to get a "Gotcha!" moment which failed miserably.
Why are you lying like that? Now after you got exposed to be a fraudulent debater, now you're resorting to run away like a coward, with the tail between your legs? This is Oda's message and he clearly said he prepared to create a secondary MC next to Luffy which is Zoro.
Again, this interview is recent, you're just nitpicking at small details at this point because nothing changed about chapter 2 Zoro and current Zoro when it comes to his position. It's the contrast, his position even strengthened after more crew members joined the crew and he is still the nr. 2 of the strawhats.
It is very easy to blame users of following an agenda when you are just incapable of admitting your own faults in this discussion. You cannot simply admit you were wrong. It's hilarious, lol. The story doesn't show this at all either.
Um, no? Again, only Nami would have another spot at being called the deuteragonist. However, with the way how Zoro was portrayed in the story and Oda's recent statement, it's clear Oda is the deuteragonist.
Nobody says there are two protagonists in this thread.
I did, you are just fucking blind lmao:
"How is Oda showing that in the story? Also, like I said, the SBS's sole function is to give answers to unanswered question and to this degree, statements in the SBS are even more important than manga statements because like II said, it depends on how Oda shows it."
"2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth."
That's why I asked you the exact degree of the two statements, the very context of how their intention is. If Oda is just objectively answering questions without hiding things, it's a 100% secure statement. If the manga states something but it is under the context that the messager only has limited knowledge to what this person is saying, it's obvious the SBS statement is more reliable even if both came out at the same time, at date format: 2024-02-03, 11 pm (example). Lol.
You mean, another more random BS example to make an invalid point yet again, wasting my time even further in process.
Nope, you mean "Cope outta the inevitable situation that I'd have to admit to be wrong" experiment. Slight correction.
Yep, I was capable of that, you didn't like my answer, you started coping, being triggered and steaming mad at me, and posted even more BS scenarios called "thought experiments"...
Nope.
Nope.
You are just blind, lol.
And I just did. In order to gain even more data from this hypothetical situation, I asked you more specific questions but you clearly missed that.
I just did that? This was my response:
"1.) Why should Oda be telling this? It would not benefit him doing two statements at the same time while contradicting his own ass but well, when it comes to current Oda and how much he fucked up Egghead Island, it's not impossible...
This is just a very unrealistic scenario in general and I usually know such equations in Boolean algebra when you check if the conditions are true or false.
No author would make use of such a confusing way to contradict their own statements, lmao.
2.) Like I said, SBS answer wins when it comes to source hierarchy because this directly comes from the author, there are no misunderstandings of rumors and extra storytelling style to give halfassed answers which aren't exactly known yet until the protagonist finds ouut the truth.
=> My conclusion: So if Zoro's plot relevance was neglected by Oda over the years and he just announced it NOW that Zoro is the deuteragonist in fact, it doesn't invalidate his statement, it just proves he didn't implement Zoro's role within the story properly as intented, not that Zoro does not contain this role. "
So obviously, you didn't agree to that and that's why your post is longer than this recent quote which I've quoted now.
Of course I'm sure about it. There is no realistic scenario an author would make two contradicting statements at the same time, at two difference sources.
Um, no. I'm just arguing against a dude who is basically the real representation of this meme:
That's your mistake, though.
You believe this thing:
Two elements, X and Y. One set Z (narrative).
You think it's X = Z but Y != Z, so both elements are not in the same set when this is simply not the case because the statement of Zoro being the deuteragonist doesn't contradict the narration in One Piece. It's the contrast.
So Y = Z. That's why both elements are in the same set.
I see nothing what you're trying to show off? But yeah, I just literally explained why, lmao.
It is not highly problematic and I explained why. No, it doesn't render the story valueless, lmao. It's because the story has a clear stylistic device, it purposely gives messages multiple interpretations to push the mystery factor, many statements are made indirect (That's why I came up with Kaido's WSC title how it is often phrased as hearsays) but when it comes to authors having interviews and giving sincere answers to questions, it is often more valuable because the author can add even more details about specific characters and their events, about narrative unanswered questions, etc.
Yes, that's exactly how reality works. That's how Oda's fiction works, he is the guy who created all these rules, all the laws of the fictional world and if he someday says, Nami is a lesbian despite her showing interests to guys in previous chapters, it means this character got retconned. Yes, it can easily get harsh criticism but technically, the author can do that, so what are you gonna do about it?
That's a weird and inaccurate analogy in fact, lol. Ofc the architect can say that. Remember that particular episode in How I Met Your Mother when Ted's asshole boss created a building model for his clients and his client thought it's shaped like a penis? The architect vehemently denied it because he didn't intent to make the shape into a penis. It was misleading, maybe he had a banana in mind, how do you, or the other subjects, know about it? We only view our own respective reality with our own eyes and perception.
Who wrote that? You?
If not, I'd like to know the source of this statement.
Either way, I disagree because retcons are a thing and the author can reshape the reality of the story with new or changed details.
I mean, first, define what you believe is "sexism" in the first place, then we can talk? Also, about such subjective things, as long as it isn't blatantly clear, the author can write statements to solve misunderstandings. For example, S Snake turned navy soldiers and Usopp to stones, right? So would Usopp be a pedo because he was sexually attracted to a child? Then Oda gave his reason: "Um, no. Boa's power also radiates cuteness and if people will find kids cute, they will be affected".
You have such a tunnel vision about such things, lmao. So self-proclaimed expert, did you ever think about such hypothetical situations?
Nope, you don't even know the concept of retcons: Not that stating Zoro is a deuteragonist is a retcon in the first place.
A close ally is Law, Marco or Bartolomeo. Zoro is not his ally, he is his right hand man. How often do I have to spell this out for you? There needs nothing to be erased or recreated because Zoro's role has been the same ever since chapter 2 bruh...
>Says ''Nyaban brothers are not fodder'' in previous post
>I say Kuro stomped them so they are fodder
>Then he says Zolo made them fodder
This moron is a good representation of how ZKKclowns are arguing.
Zolo saved nothing, Luffy did that. Then Law and Kid did more by beating an Emperor, CP0 even says all efforts are for nothing if they can't beat the Emperors. No one said beating Alber is even better than beating Queen, Zolo and Sanji both beat All-Stars from Kaido's crew.
So what happened to Zolo himself saying captain should be stronger and he is a sidekick like others?
Imagine Ryuma being an underling like this lmao.
Zolo is not goofy like Ryuma as well, cry all you want. Zolo is a stoic underling of Luffy, he is not more important than other underlings of Luffy.
>I say Kuro stomped them so they are fodder
>Then he says Zolo made them fodder
This moron is a good representation of how ZKKclowns are arguing.
Zolo saved nothing, Luffy did that. Then Law and Kid did more by beating an Emperor, CP0 even says all efforts are for nothing if they can't beat the Emperors. No one said beating Alber is even better than beating Queen, Zolo and Sanji both beat All-Stars from Kaido's crew.
So what happened to Zolo himself saying captain should be stronger and he is a sidekick like others?
Imagine Ryuma being an underling like this lmao.
Zolo is not goofy like Ryuma as well, cry all you want. Zolo is a stoic underling of Luffy, he is not more important than other underlings of Luffy.
Zoro saved nothing?
You’re a good representation of a clown. No one should ever take you serious.Law and Kidd didn’t beat BM, plot did.
Who gives af about Queen? Like seriously? He’s a bum.
No one not named Zoro wasn’t beating king. Marco couldn’t it; Sanji with his super suit couldn’t do it, none of the allied forces could do it.
Then you post 💩 that doesn’t support your argument. Zoro literally said, Luffy needed to be that strong to be his captain, not that Luffy was stronger than him. Learn how to read
Ryuma is a lot closer to Zoro than Teach who’s scared of old men, or Nika who’s a joke that couldn’t beat Lucci or Kizaru. The only Yonko that’s been a disappointment.
this “sidekick” is better than the captain. FMI Zoro would destroy goofy
Remove Luffy from the story.
What will be Zolo's importance for the story without Luffy?
ZKKclowns realizing all the ''importance'' that Zolo has for the story is simply leeching off Luffy yet they act like Zolo is 2nd most important guy and meanwhile they also hate Luffy.
Zolo's importance is no different than rest of Luffy's crew.
What will be Zolo's importance for the story without Luffy?
ZKKclowns realizing all the ''importance'' that Zolo has for the story is simply leeching off Luffy yet they act like Zolo is 2nd most important guy and meanwhile they also hate Luffy.
Zolo's importance is no different than rest of Luffy's crew.
Oda: In order for OP to be popular, I created 2nd main character, like Ryuma...
Also Oda: Uh, oh... How do I stop this guy from being more popular than Luffy...
Also Oda: Uh, oh... How do I stop this guy from being more popular than Luffy...
If he did, Zoro would become more popular than Luffy.
Do a better job then lol
Technicality is an objective parameter mate. I do not have to like something to understand that it is good.
Its based on storytelling crafting techniques so yes, it is based on factual things. You simply don't understand what I'm talking about. So let me give you an example:
I don't like the cathedral of Paris, but I know that this is a work of architectural art because I have knowledge on some of the techniques used to build it. Its the same here. Wether or not you like G5 does not come into consideration, the reality is that the technicality level of this narrative data is great. Its an OBJECTIVE fact.
?
So friendly.... I wonder who is the respectfull one between you and me... ?
Again, you don't know how to read. Go back to what I said :)
Nop
Nop. All the strawhats are on equal level. There is not one strawhat closer to Luffy (aside from Usopp who might be considered his best friend)
Lmao nop lol.
But you are cute if you think that a side story about the blades of Zoro are more important than entire developments of character.
Sadly, this would be too much to explain to you in term of narration to make you understand so I will leave you in that fantasy haha
Again, its not a question of belief is a question of fact, knowledge and experience.
Storytelling (and politics) are my forte, so I intervene in case where I need to defend those field or make a point about them. Sadly, I can't cure ignorance and I can't force someone to understand something they don't want to understand.
All three are true yes.
An "ally" in storytelling is not necessarily just an aquaintance that helps you. It can be your mom or your best friend.
"Ally" means "with the protagonist"
Zoro is therefore an ally. You could say that he is one of the closest ally of Luffy with the other strawhats. He is ALSO the right hand man of Luffy. If you have a problem with that notion, you will have to scream toward those who theorized it.
Why would I ? There is no need to complicate things here. You guys are complicating and confusing things on your own. Its not Oda's fault.
Cool, and ?
No. All strawhats have this role. Zoro is simply the vice captain because its his post, its not his status in the story. If that was the case and Zoro was indeed a sidekick, you would see a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT MORE of Zoro and a LOOOT less of the strawhats.
The reality of the story is clear : Zoro is the closest ally of Luffy. Like ALL the strawhats, nothing more. They are all his family, they counts on the SAME level. At NO POINT Luffy expressed more closeness toward Zoro than the other strawhats.
So please guys, stop inventing stuff that are not in the story just because you want Zoro to shine. Its sad and its harmfull for the comprehension of the story for people.
Zoro is not irrelevant
No therte is no "come on"
Luffy only failed once, and none of the current strawhats at the time were here to take the role. Guess who managed to bring back Luffy ?
Jinbe.
When Luffy is not here, ALL the character can shine, it can be Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Nami etc. In fact, the character who shined the most to the role of team managment is not Zoro, but Jinbe. Who managed to remotivate and refocus the team when Luffy was absent.
So stop inventing stuff that are not in the story just because you like a character.
Zoro is a good vice captain, he is the guardian of the crew. But that's his role and his characterization. He doesn't have a special status in the story compared to all the other strawhats. They are ALL equal in term of status. And purpusefully so since the strawhats represent a form of anarchism with an horizontal hierachy.
Read the story with more objectivity and less agenda please.
No, the reason why people often mistake Zoro for the captain is because of what I call the testosteron bias. Zoro fits in the gender and power expectations of what we think we want to see in charismatic leaders. So when people see Zoro, they mistake him for the leader. But a leader is more than that. And One Piece portrays it perfectly.
In the story where moriaty appears. Moriarty IS more important than watson for the story.
That's a simple narrative fact. A fact that you can sadly only understand if you already tried to build a story before.
I will repeat it slowly:
In a story, the protagonist is the motor and the antagonist is the fuel. The story only exist because of the duel/battle/fight/opposition between the antagonist and the protagonist.
In One Piece, the main antagonist is Blackbeard. The Story hearth is based on the conflict and opposition between blackbeard and LUffy.
The golden rule of character building is storytelling is that characters must be created to CONTRAST eachothers.
In One Piece, Luffy shines in opposition to the main and the sub antagonists. Without them, Luffy can't shine as much.
The antagonist is therefore the most important character to create in relationship with the protagonist. Both need to be created back to back.
This is why, Moriarty is the mirror of Sherlock Holmes. Deep down, they are the same and have the same purpose, but the differences of value is what creates contrast between them.
Oda literally portrayed this with blackbeard and Luffy on the page:
Same characterization
But complete opposition.
Same dreams and desires
But complete contrast
In a story, the antagonist is the character that will make the protagonist shine. This is literally the sayin "Light can only shine through darkness"
ALL modern stories are build around the opposition between both characters.
This is why the Antagonist is the second most important character for the story after the protagonist.
The ally or close ally or sidekick is also necessary and part of the grid of characters that we must build around this opposition, but they are less important for the story that those last two.
Oda is not wrong, Oda said nothing that contradicts what I'm saying mate :)
You are simply extrapolating what he said.
That's a certainty yes. And this comes from experience. I had to deal with a lot of bullshit to learn things correctly
There is a justification but you refuse to accept it lol
The justification is simple : I know more than you on the subject
This is not arrogance, this is the fact. I would love for you to know more than me, but what I'm seeing here does not verify that hypothesis.
Its not a question of research, its a question of narrative logic mate.
This term is not efficient on a logical basis. It is a holdall term that is not necessary and that - when used - can mean a lot of different things.
Its simply, not pertinent. You don't have to believe me on that, just follow the logic of the narrative concept itself.
When said term can be used to describe a sidekick, an antagonist or a close ally, said term is completely inefficiant to categorize anything !! And the reason is simple, this term was not meant to describe something more than a second actor on stage who was important for the protagonist.
And like I said, I'm not completely against the usage of this term, but I want YOU to use it correctly.
If you REALLY want to use this term (which is again, non pertinent), then you CAN'T only say that Zoro is the deuteragonist since he is equal in term of narrative status with all the strawhat, you also need to put ALL the strawhats as deuteragonist.
Not only that but you ALSO need to take into account ALL of what I call "the main arc character", those are the protagonists of all the different arcs in the story.
Then you will be using the term correctly - ishhh
The sad thing is that I'm throwing at you literal storytelling knowledge, things that I had to learn myself and you think those are "my arguments". This is kinda sad.
I'm not the one crying here mate it seems
Sigh... I'm speaking to a literal wall of ignorance.
No. its wrong. All strawhats are narratively equal.
What you are talking about is the post. NOT the narrative status. Again, not the same things.
Zoro is the second most liked character in the story, so this is not really surprising mate....
That's what you get COMPLETELY wrong.
And that's is actually quite sad since it means that you don't understand the core principle and value system of One Piece.
The strawhats ARE NOT a hierarchy.
Luffy is not the leader out of status, he is the leader because he is seen as the leader. Zoro hold absolutely no more status than Nami or Jinbe. He holds no more right than them and no more priviledges.
The strawhats are a closed off representation of a anarchism.
The reason is simple: Strawhats are pirates and pirates are considered as the first representation of proto-anarchism.
You are not debunking what I said bro. You have just shown me example were people are trying to condense type of stories in less than term categories.
Its cool and its cute (I'm sure you think I have never seen these before) but this does not negate what I said since we are not talking about the same thing here.
What I'm talking about are not the type of stories (what your sources are talking about) but HOW STORIES ARE MADE in the first place.
And spoiler
A compelling story can't exist without conflict
You can try to create a story through a succession of happy moments, you will never be able to create emotion.
A story must have conflict to exist. And in a story, the antagonist and the opposition between the character and the antagonist are the representation of said conflict.
ALSO
ALL story, no matter their type will have the same basic structure. The big 3:
- A beginning
- A middle
- An end
This might sound childlish and "too easy" for you (this is what I thought also at the beginning) but this is far from being the case.
What this "big 3" rules is telling is that a story will need AT LEAST three acts. And that those three acts must be written correctly in relationship to their position.
This is what I'm saying when I say that everystories have the same backbones. You can also add the fact that MOST stories will ALSO have similar outlines.
- An introduction
- A call for adventure
- Peripecia
- A impactfull midpoint
- A moment of despair
- A revelation
- An battle/opposition
- A resolution
You will find those in pretty much everystories. Simply because those are the very basic principle to create a compelling narration.
I say basic because in reality most modern stories have between 10 and 30 of those points (I for example, am using around 25 of those narrative knot to create my stories. Some are using less, some are using only the basic one...)
One Piece is no different.
So when someone is telling you that everystories are different, they are right..... and wrong. Everystories are different because they will all be percieved differently by the readers or spectators. But they are all derived from one big basic foundamental structure :
The structure of life
I would need to make you a real narrative comparison for you to understand that yes, they are similar. but I don't have the time and also I don't read Gintama.
No, you are just not understanding what I'm saying... but that's not a first for me don't worry.
I'm really not a good pedagogue.
Zoro is not damaging anything bru, YOU ARE.
Zoro status is clear, its you guys who are trying to elevate it to a place where it does not belong. And the problem is that it will create expectations and confusion. Which will create hatred and frustration. And that is damaging for the fanbase.
I'm never wrong when I'm analysing stuff mate, simply because I always analyse what i'm sure to have the capacities to analyse.
But keep coping..
Again, this is debatable. But I do not intend to reread Naruto to give you a definitive answer on the subject
No... even with those website, this is not the definition.
Deuteragonist is simply an important character for the protagonist, not a second MC. Again, term is not pertinent.
I think you should reread this thread :)
In reality it can fit into a LOT MORE than 3 roles lol. but that would - again - need me to make you a lesson and this is not a necessity.
Term is not pertinent. Period.
If I have to explain you narratively why the strawhats are equal in term of narrative value, I would need a lot more than just this one post mate.
This is just something you need to understand when reading One Piece. If you didn't understand that, then you didn't understand a bit point of One Piece i'm sorry. I won't give you this lecture here.
Mostly because you don't seem to be familiar with storytelling and I would risk to explain something for hours with you simply not understanding. So I'll pass. Stay in ignorance.
This is his role as a first crewmate yes.
I'm fighting water here lol... its completely useless since we do not have the same basic knowledge to begin with.
No, there is no such thing as second most important MC in One Piece. Sorry. Zoro is the first crewmate, but in One Piece, his narrative status is equal to all the strawhats. You only think that he is more important because his shining moments are situation where Zoro is there to protect the entire crew. But that's his role, its narratively logical.
You are extrapolating the importance of Zoro when its not necessary. You are confusing the comprehension of the narration.
Zoro is not the most important character after Luffy for the story, only the antagonist is.
Zoro is only the most important character (with ALL the strawhats) FOR Luffy.
Keep thinking that lol
Well, you choosed to argue with me bro, I'm not responsible. You can ignore me if you want. but I won't let your BS pass, sorry.
Why is this important for the debate exactly ?
I feel like i'm discussing with a zoro fanboy that can't accept the reality of the story.
Bro. i'm talking about the narration of the story, not the SBS.
In the crew there is no "most important characters" after Luffy. They are ALL EQUAL.
Zoro shines when the job is to protect the crew or to question the captain
Jinbe Shines when he needs to guide the crew and remotivate the team
Usopp shines when someone needs backup
Chopper shines when people are hurt
Nami shines on the sea or when we need a reasonnable voice
Etc. Etc.
They are all equal, Zoro is not most important because he sometimes takes the role of vicecaptain. The hierarchical structure of the crew is HORIZONTAL. And Luffy acts only as a leader when needed.
Again, the strawhats are the representation of a little anarchist system. There are equal, in term of status and in term of narration.
You need to understand that or you will miss one of the biggest point of One Piece.
Same thing
Nope. I don't make comparison between blackbeard and Zoro. They have two very different narrative status. It would be pointless.
Sure
Are you saying that I need to give you also a lecture on archetypes in narration ?
Zoro is not the second MC narratively, so either you are missinterpretating what Oda is saying, either you don't understand the story. Your choice:
?
Oh no, I fully understand that I am in the middle of a group of people are so completely sure they understand the story that they can use random ancient term to qualify and elevate the position of a character of the story even when said story show that said character does not have said position...
I understand that you guys will be doing what you usually do, laughing at me with all your feets in the mud of your ignorance... but...
I'm quite stubborn myself and I can't pass a challenge so...
Here I am.
No you don't lol. And I think you won't understand soon.
What he sais is that he PREPARED Ryuma AS a second main protagonist.
He did NOT say: "I wrote Zoro as a second main protagonist".
What you must understand by his message is that he created Ryuma to be a POTENTIAL second MC. NOT that this is what he actually did in the story with Zoro !
The level of extrapolation you guys are doing is really extraordinary.
No, I'm reading precisely what is being said. And you guys are literally inventing stuff that Oda did not say.
Really, you are delulu. on this matter.
I made no fault here. Its not my fault if you guys don't know how to read.
I'm literally fighting a windmill lol
Yeah sorry, I reply message after message, didn't read your answer at this point ;)
And that's what you don't udnerstand is problematic.
If the story state CLEARLY (through the narration or the dialogue) that X=Y and Oda says in a SBS or an interview that X=/=Y, and if you choose to believe Oda rather than what he wrotes, then you render the story valueless.
And this point, there is no point to even reading the story if you consider than the author can just retcon what he wrote through a non diegetic sources.
It also problematic since you negate the fact that the author is not necessarily aware of everything that he writes.
The story shows clearly that Sanji is sexist, but following your point of view, if Oda says that Sanji is not sexist, then there is a contradiction. And by choosing the words of Oda that are biased you would render the content of the story completely valueless.
Oda wrote Sanji as a sexist man because he is has sexist biases himself. You can't just ignore what he wrotes simply because he is the author.
That's a golden rule of storytelling and literature analysis.
Then what you guys are saying is an fallacious extrapolation since you are literally saying that Oda is making two statement at once.
Yes it does lol since your interpretation of the words contradicts what the story is narrating. That's what you don't understand.
Yes it does
Not if said information contradict the storytelling (which gladly never happened in One Piece with Oda :) )
Again, an author who does that and a reader who accept that DEVALUE the story written.
There is no point in reading the story if the author can just retcon everything if he wants.
You are NOT understand one of the major rule when you are an author: You are god ONLY when the story is not set. Once the story is up in the shopping mall or movie theatre, then you can't say "this character is a bad guys if you never wrote it that way", the only things that counts after that is the reception and the way people will see your story and...
That is something that an author CANNOT control
Again, if the author really want to rewrite the story, he needs to REWRITE IT. He can't just add informations outside of the diegetic continuum that are contradicting the narration.
That's not how reality works and every author understand that.
Oda is not placing Zoro as the second main character, he just said that he prepared Ryuma as a potential Main protagonist alongside Luffy. He did not say that he went with the idea and the narration is a PROOF that he did NOT went with the idea.
You guys are extrapolating the story.
And you are completely and dramatically missunderstanding the power of an author on his story.
Yes, but just like I explained previously. The author or the architect of a work of art, is only god BEFORE the work of art is set on support.
When that's done, the architects or author or creator has absolutely NO POWER OR CONTROL on the reception of said work of art.
If a building was build to ressemble a banana but is shaped like a penis. What counts is not the words of the architect on his original vision, what counts is the shape of the final product !
That's why EVEN IF (and that's not the case) Oda created and still creating Zoro as a second MC, the story proves that he didn't wrote it that way and Zoro does not have a special status compared to others strawhats.
So what counts is the final product, NOT the (potential) words of Oda.
Yup. That's pretty much a summary of everything that I have learn about storytelling.
Again, you don't have to believe me. But if you want to get out of ignorance, I suggest you listen.
In the story yes. In that case, there can be retcons (THere are non in One Piece in my knowledge) but ONLY through the story and not through a sbs or a random interview.
I won't have this discussion here. If you want to have it, go to the political thread.
Which is a reason that was not necessary to add. People who understand the narration at the time understood that what was impacting those character was cuteness and not a pervy feeling. It was evident.
I know a lot about retcon, but you are cute lol
And we are back to scare one.... lol
Technicality is an objective parameter mate. I do not have to like something to understand that it is good.
Its based on storytelling crafting techniques so yes, it is based on factual things. You simply don't understand what I'm talking about. So let me give you an example:
I don't like the cathedral of Paris, but I know that this is a work of architectural art because I have knowledge on some of the techniques used to build it. Its the same here. Wether or not you like G5 does not come into consideration, the reality is that the technicality level of this narrative data is great. Its an OBJECTIVE fact.
?
So friendly.... I wonder who is the respectfull one between you and me... ?
Again, you don't know how to read. Go back to what I said :)
Nop
Nop. All the strawhats are on equal level. There is not one strawhat closer to Luffy (aside from Usopp who might be considered his best friend)
Lmao nop lol.
But you are cute if you think that a side story about the blades of Zoro are more important than entire developments of character.
Sadly, this would be too much to explain to you in term of narration to make you understand so I will leave you in that fantasy haha
Again, its not a question of belief is a question of fact, knowledge and experience.
Storytelling (and politics) are my forte, so I intervene in case where I need to defend those field or make a point about them. Sadly, I can't cure ignorance and I can't force someone to understand something they don't want to understand.
All three are true yes.
An "ally" in storytelling is not necessarily just an aquaintance that helps you. It can be your mom or your best friend.
"Ally" means "with the protagonist"
Zoro is therefore an ally. You could say that he is one of the closest ally of Luffy with the other strawhats. He is ALSO the right hand man of Luffy. If you have a problem with that notion, you will have to scream toward those who theorized it.
Why would I ? There is no need to complicate things here. You guys are complicating and confusing things on your own. Its not Oda's fault.
Cool, and ?
No. All strawhats have this role. Zoro is simply the vice captain because its his post, its not his status in the story. If that was the case and Zoro was indeed a sidekick, you would see a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT MORE of Zoro and a LOOOT less of the strawhats.
The reality of the story is clear : Zoro is the closest ally of Luffy. Like ALL the strawhats, nothing more. They are all his family, they counts on the SAME level. At NO POINT Luffy expressed more closeness toward Zoro than the other strawhats.
So please guys, stop inventing stuff that are not in the story just because you want Zoro to shine. Its sad and its harmfull for the comprehension of the story for people.
Zoro is not irrelevant
No therte is no "come on"
Luffy only failed once, and none of the current strawhats at the time were here to take the role. Guess who managed to bring back Luffy ?
Jinbe.
When Luffy is not here, ALL the character can shine, it can be Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Nami etc. In fact, the character who shined the most to the role of team managment is not Zoro, but Jinbe. Who managed to remotivate and refocus the team when Luffy was absent.
So stop inventing stuff that are not in the story just because you like a character.
Zoro is a good vice captain, he is the guardian of the crew. But that's his role and his characterization. He doesn't have a special status in the story compared to all the other strawhats. They are ALL equal in term of status. And purpusefully so since the strawhats represent a form of anarchism with an horizontal hierachy.
Read the story with more objectivity and less agenda please.
No, the reason why people often mistake Zoro for the captain is because of what I call the testosteron bias. Zoro fits in the gender and power expectations of what we think we want to see in charismatic leaders. So when people see Zoro, they mistake him for the leader. But a leader is more than that. And One Piece portrays it perfectly.
In the story where moriaty appears. Moriarty IS more important than watson for the story.
That's a simple narrative fact. A fact that you can sadly only understand if you already tried to build a story before.
I will repeat it slowly:
In a story, the protagonist is the motor and the antagonist is the fuel. The story only exist because of the duel/battle/fight/opposition between the antagonist and the protagonist.
In One Piece, the main antagonist is Blackbeard. The Story hearth is based on the conflict and opposition between blackbeard and LUffy.
The golden rule of character building is storytelling is that characters must be created to CONTRAST eachothers.
In One Piece, Luffy shines in opposition to the main and the sub antagonists. Without them, Luffy can't shine as much.
The antagonist is therefore the most important character to create in relationship with the protagonist. Both need to be created back to back.
This is why, Moriarty is the mirror of Sherlock Holmes. Deep down, they are the same and have the same purpose, but the differences of value is what creates contrast between them.
Oda literally portrayed this with blackbeard and Luffy on the page:
Same characterization
But complete opposition.
Same dreams and desires
But complete contrast
In a story, the antagonist is the character that will make the protagonist shine. This is literally the sayin "Light can only shine through darkness"
ALL modern stories are build around the opposition between both characters.
This is why the Antagonist is the second most important character for the story after the protagonist.
The ally or close ally or sidekick is also necessary and part of the grid of characters that we must build around this opposition, but they are less important for the story that those last two.
Oda is not wrong, Oda said nothing that contradicts what I'm saying mate :)
You are simply extrapolating what he said.
That's a certainty yes. And this comes from experience. I had to deal with a lot of bullshit to learn things correctly
There is a justification but you refuse to accept it lol
The justification is simple : I know more than you on the subject
This is not arrogance, this is the fact. I would love for you to know more than me, but what I'm seeing here does not verify that hypothesis.
Its not a question of research, its a question of narrative logic mate.
This term is not efficient on a logical basis. It is a holdall term that is not necessary and that - when used - can mean a lot of different things.
Its simply, not pertinent. You don't have to believe me on that, just follow the logic of the narrative concept itself.
When said term can be used to describe a sidekick, an antagonist or a close ally, said term is completely inefficiant to categorize anything !! And the reason is simple, this term was not meant to describe something more than a second actor on stage who was important for the protagonist.
And like I said, I'm not completely against the usage of this term, but I want YOU to use it correctly.
If you REALLY want to use this term (which is again, non pertinent), then you CAN'T only say that Zoro is the deuteragonist since he is equal in term of narrative status with all the strawhat, you also need to put ALL the strawhats as deuteragonist.
Not only that but you ALSO need to take into account ALL of what I call "the main arc character", those are the protagonists of all the different arcs in the story.
Then you will be using the term correctly - ishhh
The sad thing is that I'm throwing at you literal storytelling knowledge, things that I had to learn myself and you think those are "my arguments". This is kinda sad.
I'm not the one crying here mate it seems
Sigh... I'm speaking to a literal wall of ignorance.
No. its wrong. All strawhats are narratively equal.
What you are talking about is the post. NOT the narrative status. Again, not the same things.
Zoro is the second most liked character in the story, so this is not really surprising mate....
That's what you get COMPLETELY wrong.
And that's is actually quite sad since it means that you don't understand the core principle and value system of One Piece.
The strawhats ARE NOT a hierarchy.
Luffy is not the leader out of status, he is the leader because he is seen as the leader. Zoro hold absolutely no more status than Nami or Jinbe. He holds no more right than them and no more priviledges.
The strawhats are a closed off representation of a anarchism.
The reason is simple: Strawhats are pirates and pirates are considered as the first representation of proto-anarchism.
You are not debunking what I said bro. You have just shown me example were people are trying to condense type of stories in less than term categories.
Its cool and its cute (I'm sure you think I have never seen these before) but this does not negate what I said since we are not talking about the same thing here.
What I'm talking about are not the type of stories (what your sources are talking about) but HOW STORIES ARE MADE in the first place.
And spoiler
A compelling story can't exist without conflict
You can try to create a story through a succession of happy moments, you will never be able to create emotion.
A story must have conflict to exist. And in a story, the antagonist and the opposition between the character and the antagonist are the representation of said conflict.
ALSO
ALL story, no matter their type will have the same basic structure. The big 3:
- A beginning
- A middle
- An end
This might sound childlish and "too easy" for you (this is what I thought also at the beginning) but this is far from being the case.
What this "big 3" rules is telling is that a story will need AT LEAST three acts. And that those three acts must be written correctly in relationship to their position.
This is what I'm saying when I say that everystories have the same backbones. You can also add the fact that MOST stories will ALSO have similar outlines.
- An introduction
- A call for adventure
- Peripecia
- A impactfull midpoint
- A moment of despair
- A revelation
- An battle/opposition
- A resolution
You will find those in pretty much everystories. Simply because those are the very basic principle to create a compelling narration.
I say basic because in reality most modern stories have between 10 and 30 of those points (I for example, am using around 25 of those narrative knot to create my stories. Some are using less, some are using only the basic one...)
One Piece is no different.
So when someone is telling you that everystories are different, they are right..... and wrong. Everystories are different because they will all be percieved differently by the readers or spectators. But they are all derived from one big basic foundamental structure :
The structure of life
I would need to make you a real narrative comparison for you to understand that yes, they are similar. but I don't have the time and also I don't read Gintama.
Genos: Deuteragonist who is a sidekick.
[....] You're so lost.
[....] You're so lost.
I'm really not a good pedagogue.
Zoro is not damaging anything bru, YOU ARE.
Zoro status is clear, its you guys who are trying to elevate it to a place where it does not belong. And the problem is that it will create expectations and confusion. Which will create hatred and frustration. And that is damaging for the fanbase.
I'm never wrong when I'm analysing stuff mate, simply because I always analyse what i'm sure to have the capacities to analyse.
But keep coping..
Again, this is debatable. But I do not intend to reread Naruto to give you a definitive answer on the subject
No... even with those website, this is not the definition.
Deuteragonist is simply an important character for the protagonist, not a second MC. Again, term is not pertinent.
Who says this?
In reality it can fit into a LOT MORE than 3 roles lol. but that would - again - need me to make you a lesson and this is not a necessity.
Term is not pertinent. Period.
If I have to explain you narratively why the strawhats are equal in term of narrative value, I would need a lot more than just this one post mate.
This is just something you need to understand when reading One Piece. If you didn't understand that, then you didn't understand a bit point of One Piece i'm sorry. I won't give you this lecture here.
Mostly because you don't seem to be familiar with storytelling and I would risk to explain something for hours with you simply not understanding. So I'll pass. Stay in ignorance.
This is his role as a first crewmate yes.
I'm fighting water here lol... its completely useless since we do not have the same basic knowledge to begin with.
No, there is no such thing as second most important MC in One Piece. Sorry. Zoro is the first crewmate, but in One Piece, his narrative status is equal to all the strawhats. You only think that he is more important because his shining moments are situation where Zoro is there to protect the entire crew. But that's his role, its narratively logical.
You are extrapolating the importance of Zoro when its not necessary. You are confusing the comprehension of the narration.
Zoro is not the most important character after Luffy for the story, only the antagonist is.
Zoro is only the most important character (with ALL the strawhats) FOR Luffy.
Keep thinking that lol
Well, you choosed to argue with me bro, I'm not responsible. You can ignore me if you want. but I won't let your BS pass, sorry.
Why is this important for the debate exactly ?
I feel like i'm discussing with a zoro fanboy that can't accept the reality of the story.
Bro. i'm talking about the narration of the story, not the SBS.
In the crew there is no "most important characters" after Luffy. They are ALL EQUAL.
Zoro shines when the job is to protect the crew or to question the captain
Jinbe Shines when he needs to guide the crew and remotivate the team
Usopp shines when someone needs backup
Chopper shines when people are hurt
Nami shines on the sea or when we need a reasonnable voice
Etc. Etc.
They are all equal, Zoro is not most important because he sometimes takes the role of vicecaptain. The hierarchical structure of the crew is HORIZONTAL. And Luffy acts only as a leader when needed.
Again, the strawhats are the representation of a little anarchist system. There are equal, in term of status and in term of narration.
You need to understand that or you will miss one of the biggest point of One Piece.
Same thing
Nope. I don't make comparison between blackbeard and Zoro. They have two very different narrative status. It would be pointless.
SureAre you saying that I need to give you also a lecture on archetypes in narration ?
Zoro is not the second MC narratively, so either you are missinterpretating what Oda is saying, either you don't understand the story. Your choice:
?
Oh no, I fully understand that I am in the middle of a group of people are so completely sure they understand the story that they can use random ancient term to qualify and elevate the position of a character of the story even when said story show that said character does not have said position...
I understand that you guys will be doing what you usually do, laughing at me with all your feets in the mud of your ignorance... but...
I'm quite stubborn myself and I can't pass a challenge so...
Here I am.
No you don't lol. And I think you won't understand soon.
What he sais is that he PREPARED Ryuma AS a second main protagonist.
He did NOT say: "I wrote Zoro as a second main protagonist".
What you must understand by his message is that he created Ryuma to be a POTENTIAL second MC. NOT that this is what he actually did in the story with Zoro !
The level of extrapolation you guys are doing is really extraordinary.
No, I'm reading precisely what is being said. And you guys are literally inventing stuff that Oda did not say.
Really, you are delulu. on this matter.
I made no fault here. Its not my fault if you guys don't know how to read.
I'm literally fighting a windmill lol
Yeah sorry, I reply message after message, didn't read your answer at this point ;)
And that's what you don't udnerstand is problematic.
If the story state CLEARLY (through the narration or the dialogue) that X=Y and Oda says in a SBS or an interview that X=/=Y, and if you choose to believe Oda rather than what he wrotes, then you render the story valueless.
And this point, there is no point to even reading the story if you consider than the author can just retcon what he wrote through a non diegetic sources.
It also problematic since you negate the fact that the author is not necessarily aware of everything that he writes.
The story shows clearly that Sanji is sexist, but following your point of view, if Oda says that Sanji is not sexist, then there is a contradiction. And by choosing the words of Oda that are biased you would render the content of the story completely valueless.
Oda wrote Sanji as a sexist man because he is has sexist biases himself. You can't just ignore what he wrotes simply because he is the author.
That's a golden rule of storytelling and literature analysis.
Then what you guys are saying is an fallacious extrapolation since you are literally saying that Oda is making two statement at once.
Yes it does lol since your interpretation of the words contradicts what the story is narrating. That's what you don't understand.
Yes it does
Not if said information contradict the storytelling (which gladly never happened in One Piece with Oda :) )
Again, an author who does that and a reader who accept that DEVALUE the story written.
There is no point in reading the story if the author can just retcon everything if he wants.
You are NOT understand one of the major rule when you are an author: You are god ONLY when the story is not set. Once the story is up in the shopping mall or movie theatre, then you can't say "this character is a bad guys if you never wrote it that way", the only things that counts after that is the reception and the way people will see your story and...
That is something that an author CANNOT control
Again, if the author really want to rewrite the story, he needs to REWRITE IT. He can't just add informations outside of the diegetic continuum that are contradicting the narration.
That's not how reality works and every author understand that.
Oda is not placing Zoro as the second main character, he just said that he prepared Ryuma as a potential Main protagonist alongside Luffy. He did not say that he went with the idea and the narration is a PROOF that he did NOT went with the idea.
You guys are extrapolating the story.
And you are completely and dramatically missunderstanding the power of an author on his story.
Yes, but just like I explained previously. The author or the architect of a work of art, is only god BEFORE the work of art is set on support.
When that's done, the architects or author or creator has absolutely NO POWER OR CONTROL on the reception of said work of art.
If a building was build to ressemble a banana but is shaped like a penis. What counts is not the words of the architect on his original vision, what counts is the shape of the final product !
That's why EVEN IF (and that's not the case) Oda created and still creating Zoro as a second MC, the story proves that he didn't wrote it that way and Zoro does not have a special status compared to others strawhats.
So what counts is the final product, NOT the (potential) words of Oda.
Yup. That's pretty much a summary of everything that I have learn about storytelling.
Again, you don't have to believe me. But if you want to get out of ignorance, I suggest you listen.
In the story yes. In that case, there can be retcons (THere are non in One Piece in my knowledge) but ONLY through the story and not through a sbs or a random interview.
I won't have this discussion here. If you want to have it, go to the political thread.
Which is a reason that was not necessary to add. People who understand the narration at the time understood that what was impacting those character was cuteness and not a pervy feeling. It was evident.
I know a lot about retcon, but you are cute lol
And we are back to scare one.... lol