You made a good point. I'm willing to step back and delete that first point. (The next, being "That respect in based on the action of Luffy toward them and not his words. Each Nakama has been changed deeply by the presence of Luffy but it didn't happen to Yamato, Yet. Yes Yamato has been freed for her shakles, but not her mind. " stays the same tho)
Luffy freeing yamato from her shackles, Luffy coming in to help Yamato with fighting kaido, are these not actions?
Yamato seeing Luffy clash with Kaido with AdvCoC, his presence there changed Yamato's mind from wanting to fight Kaido herself, to giving Kaido to Luffy, was that not Yamato respecting Luffy?
Yamato went from wanting to take down Kaido herself, to giving that role to Luffy. Did Luffy not free Yamato's mind from getting back at kaido?
Luffy never recruits his Nakama based on strenght. The recrutment pattern is much deeper than taht. Remember the "thematic incarnations" taht all the strawhats are representing ? "Joy / Pride / Intelligence etc.." well those ARE the pattern on which Luffy recruit (surely unintentionnaly) his crewmates.
That's why the strenght and the heritage of Yamato doesn't mean anything.. at all for the recruitment.
An apprentice role ? Really ? Show me were there is traxce in the story of yamato being a potential apprentice please. I'll wait. (your second remark would be a redundancy
Carrot: the sea is wonderland! (Never specifically mentioning about joining the crew)
C4N: that’s it! That’s the CLEW! Carrot will join!
Yamato: I will go out to sea with Luffy and get stronger after I kick you out from Wano, Kaido! (Specifically mentioning “WITH LUFFY”)
C4N: Yamato is red herring for Carrot
Not in the case of yamato. Oden sole reason to jion Roger was to decifer poneglyph, nothing else. You can't just put parrallelism every where just because it fits your narrative. That a youtube theorist level mistake.
You can't just deny that oden joined Whitebeard just to carve on some stones and not also because he wanted to go on an adventure and see the world. You can't just deny and omit facts from your argument when they don't work in your favour. That is a novice debater level mistake.
The Post- Roles have until the end of the arc to reveal themselves. I already told you this. If you take Carrot's early role of climbing on the Sunny as the timeframe benchmark then more than half of the crew wouldn't make the list to join. We only saw Franky's shipwright skills in his flashback at Enies Lobby, not even in the Water Seven Arc. We only saw Jinbe's helmsman skills near the end of the WCI Arc, he also only sailed a ship at the end of the impel down arc too. And since you think that the nakama shining action is tied to their role, then that also means that the role can only happen at the end of the arc and not now. IF Yamato's role has to with the ship specifically, then she can't show us that right now as onigashima is floating in the sky and all the ships are still on the seas below. At the very least we will need to wait for Kaido to be defeated and for his powers to deactivate.
There are roles and shining nakama actions can't be happen until the end of the arc when a ship is actually available. This is a broken argument and you know it. The only reason Carrot's role got highlighted at all is because she had the luxury of being on the ship at the very beginning, that is a special privilege that NO other straw hat has.
We have to see more to judge, then why are you judging now?
Now be careful becauseI have to explain something:
-The reveal of the post: will be simply the reveal that Yamato is good for a post in the Sunny while being on the Sunny.
- The introductions for a capacities for the post are all the things that will hint that the character (here, Yamato) can be related to one post on the Sunny. For example with Carrot, the introduction of the capacity for the look-out post comes very early, directly at her introduction. You can see Carrot first being a Sentry with her binocular.. then after jumps very high, look and spot Luffy.
Also about that.. I want to note that those introductions can be VERY subtle but they are ALWAYS logical: because you saw Franky being a shipwright in his arc didn't negate the fact that this role was introduced by hints much before by the fact that the Franky family were scrapers) and that Franky was a selfmade cyborg. A good theorist could've have guessed that Franky was the next shipright. Even more so when the whole point of this arc was to find one and the drawing of Luffy was litterally Franky.
So.. If the post can indeed be revealed at the very end of the arc, the introduction for a capacity to this post CAN'T wait. It needs to be done earlier, MUCH earlier. Now.. I will have hard time explaining this to you why as this something I know from experience and from my knowledge. So.. Hm..
Basically.. and narratively, the more subtle a setup is, the better. And to be subtle, it's best to make room between the setup and the reveal. So.. for that reason.. there will be a dead line where the introductions for the capacities for a post won't be able to be introduced anymore. Because narratively, it will be too late: I would put that dead line just before the party at the end of the arc , as the party is most likely the very last thing that will happen before the strawhats sails away.
So yeah.. until the party, there is room for Yamato to introduced the capacities for a post for Yamato, but the more he waits, the more unlikely it will be for Yamato to be given those introductions. I won't lie, the fact that Oda didn't introduced yet those capacity is more than concerning ! Even for Jinbe, he didn't wait that long. We are in an open space, there is plenty of thing than Yamato can do, if there was a role to fulfill.. Oda would have given us clew by now.
Don't worry about the shining Nakama action, if this is indeed a good parameter to spot a strawhat (hence it's presence), it can in fact happen at anytime, even after the arc itself.
Trust me, Carrot wasn't highlighted just because she was on the ship.. To begin with, this would mean taht Oda would have given himself work for nothing. Oda doesn't do that. Heisknown for his conscision. No, Carrot was depicted because she has a role to play.I know it's hard to understand and accept.. but trust me on that one: an author don't give 2 chapter plus 40 panel + multiple story arc to a character that "just happen to be there"... to begin with if Oda didn't needed this character, he would have given the SUlong to Pekom or Pedro and deleted Carrot.. it was very easy to do with a few twick in the narration. (like putting the sacrifice of Pedro at the very end of the arc for example). Carrot was highled - granted - because she was a Mink, but MOST OF ALL, because she was Carrot.
No, it makes no sense. Why would Oda go through all the trouble of Making Specific about Yamato and her background and making her connected to Luffy, more so than any other character outside of Ace/Sabo/Garp/Dragon etc. At this point she could literally be considered a sister to Luffy, like Ace was.
Yamato is only connected to Luffy by the respect she has for his dream.. and that she wants to join him NOTHING ELSE. you have mistaken the fact that yamato is within a flashback with Ace with the fact that alla of this had a relation to Luffy.. uh no.. that's were the blinding begins..
You are living in a dream dude.. you see things that arent there. Just to make you remember, the only thing that Yamato shared with Luffy, was her love for Oden and the statement that she should be on his ship. NOTHING MORE. look at the actual connection, you can't compared the connection of Luffy and Ace or Sabo or even Garp.. with someone like Yamato.. it's completely foolish, sorry.
All of the SHs were pre planned, or at least their concepts. Vivi wasn't supposed to join but Oda thought about making her join causes he liked her that much, but ultimately decided against it to continue the original plan.
Why would Oda change plans just for Carrot, especially given how little attention he's given her? If he really liked the character he'd give her more screen time like he did others.
I think (yes this is an hypothesis) that Oda had plans for another strawhat (neither Carrot nor Yamato) but changed his plan to transform this character into the character of Carrot. I've no proof of that, just a little feeling. I've explained this here
I have a theory about that (I wrote this in a private discord):
Wano is the climax of the Yonko saga, this is something Oda has been building up since the beginning of the story. And by "this" I mean the core of what the Yonko really is: - The large plot of Wano (The setup for the war and the war itself) - The few important storylines (Big Mom and Kaido / Yamato / The rise and fall of Onigashima / Luffy's rise to power / The strawhats / Momo's growth / The scabbard story / Oden and the Kozuki / Joyboy and the dawn.. - And mostly the themes (Parenthood / the Inherited will / The importance of the dawn / The legacy of Oden / the Japanese symbolism etc.) If you ask me what Oda is interested in right now, I'd say that his interest lies in those three things MOSTLY. And if I were to make a vast assumption.. I'd say that everything else is just optionnal to him at the moment (The little storylines / Characters development in the story [Sanji/Zoro] / The gestion of characters etc..) So if you'd ask me where is Carrot's place in all of that, I'd say, right at the bottom. If we follow the interview we knew to things: That Oda wasn't expecting to have such a long pretimeskip and that he has been wanting to write Wano for a very, very long time. So the themes and the overall plot must have taken such an important part of his mind that everything else became icing on the wedding cake.. and talking about wedding.. I would put my hand to the beast on the fact that Whole cake is actually an extension of Wano and that it was not here at first.
As I see it now, I think One Piece was just supposed to have a few islands to introduce the crew at first with a BIG middle point at Wano and the rest of the story being the race to the One Piece. So Oda might have had in mind most of his crew the end race of the story and of course the clash between the emperor at Wano.. I'd even go as far as saying that Big Mom and Kaido were supposed to be a couple during that arc a mom and a dad. But of course, when you write something so young, you are bound to make it grow, it how my.. does an idea grow and that without even thinking about it.. Oda then came up with Alabasta.. Vivi.. the shishibukai .. the supernovae .. maybe even Ace (that's debatable).. and the conflict that became Marineford.. Of course Oda didn't planned that at first.. We even have the clew in our interview taht Doffy was supposed to be a Wano fow, Dressora was therefore surely a late idea (I'd even bet on the date (2006) quote me on this lol).. Punk hazard being a dressrosa setup, it might have been the same) I'm still conflicted about Zou that might have been an earlier setup to Wano, Then (of before) Oda might have went with: "wait, what if I went rather for a "Mom" arc and a "Dad" arc instead of having two confused storylines in one..?" Whole cake was born. And with whole cake.. all the possibility of developping new characters.. like Carrot.. I often say that I think that Carrot was a late addition to the crew.. Carrot just feel like a narrative "DLC" (a good one) if we look closely at the story. I think (and I might be wrong on the pattern) that Oda had a plan for another strawhat, but that was not Carrot.. then he changed his mind.. and said to himself.. "why shouldn't I use the space of Whole cake to developp my new idea" Enters.. Carrot.. and all we know about her.. a strict construction of character during whole cake.. and then.. nothing..(almost)
I think that all of this is the reason why we don't see Carrot in Wano. This is not her story, she might have not even planned in it.. And Oda is so excited and focused on Wano that there is just no room for Carrot to grow. Does this mean that he forgot her ? NO. 1006 proved it. But he might only be able to do the minimum.. *
Of course all of this are nothing but assumptions. But this is what the story is whispering to me through it's construction.
I pretty much disagree with this whole section here. Carrot's real defining choice was going after Perospero on Wano. There she had the time and comfort to make that choice.
No. A real choice in a story needs to be defining. Not something you already know you are going to do. read some books about the creation of screenplays, you will understand. I know those are difficult concept to grasp, it took myself multiple year to understand them. That's why i'm being patient here and why I'm explaining the most I can.
Pedro's death can't be considered the most defining as Carrot didn't have the choice to make a difference there. If Carrot was given a chance to save Pedro, but was unable to act on it then that can be considered a defining choice. But Pedro was gonna die regardless of Carrot's imput. The only thing that Carrot could do is stand and watch, that's not a choice.
Carrot didn't only just spent a lot of time with the crew before joining, she's the ONLY one to spend a lot of time with the crew before joining. No other straw hat has this luxury, if it only covers one person then it can't be considered a criteria. Criteria's are the rules, not the exceptions.
I'm sorry, i'm talking about the whole time spent, not only the time before joining. This is the time before being RECRUITED. And yes, this is a good criteria to judge the relationship with the crew and the character. Because it doesn't fit Yamato doesn't mean it's meaningless.
Yamato is only connected to Luffy by the respect she has for his dream.. and that she wants to join him NOTHING ELSE. you have mistaken the fact that yamato is within a flashback with Ace with the fact that alla of this had a relation to Luffy.. uh no.. that's were the blinding begins..
You are living in a dream dude.. you see things that arent there. Just to make you remember, the only thing that Yamato shared with Luffy, was her love for Oden and the statement that she should be on his ship. NOTHING MORE. look at the actual connection, you can't compared the connection of Luffy and Ace or Sabo or even Garp.. with someone like Yamato.. it's completely foolish, sorry.
Yamato is the one who created Ace's Vivre Card, which is what allowed Luffy to be involved in Marineford, a major turning point and defining moment in the series as well as one of the biggest character moments for Luffy. That's a huge connection between the two, especially when Yamato would have also been able to share in Luffy's grief by watching Ace's Vivre Card burn up. Yamato is going to be one of the few people outside of Luffy's family and crew who understood Luffy's grief when Ace died, just like Jinbe at the time.
Now be careful becauseI have to explain something:
-The reveal of the post: will be simply the reveal that Yamato is good for a post in the Sunny while being on the Sunny.
- The introductions for a capacities for the post are all the things that will hint that the character (here, Yamato) can be related to one post on the Sunny. For example with Carrot, the introduction of the capacity for the look-out post comes very early, directly at her introduction. You can see Carrot first being a Sentry with her binocular.. then after jumps very high, look and spot Luffy.
Also about that.. I want to note that those introductions can be VERY subtle but they are ALWAYS logical: because you saw Franky being a shipwright in his arc didn't negate the fact that this role was introduced by hints much before by the fact that the Franky family were scrapers) and that Franky was a selfmade cyborg. A good theorist could've have guessed that Franky was the next shipright. Even more so when the whole point of this arc was to find one and the drawing of Luffy was litterally Franky.
So.. If the post can indeed be revealed at the very end of the arc, the introduction for a capacity to this post CAN'T wait. It needs to be done earlier, MUCH earlier. Now.. I will have hard time explaining this to you why as this something I know from experience and from my knowledge. So.. Hm..
Basically.. and narratively, the more subtle a setup is, the better. And to be subtle, it's best to make room between the setup and the reveal. So.. for that reason.. there will be a dead line where the introductions for the capacities for a post won't be able to be introduced anymore. Because narratively, it will be too late: I would put that dead line just before the party at the end of the arc , as the party is most likely the very last thing that will happen before the strawhats sails away.
So yeah.. until the party, there is room for Yamato to introduced the capacities for a post for Yamato, but the more he waits, the more unlikely it will be for Yamato to be given those introductions. I won't lie, the fact that Oda didn't introduced yet those capacity is more than concerning ! Even for Jinbe, he didn't wait that long. We are in an open space, there is plenty of thing than Yamato can do, if there was a role to fulfill.. Oda would have given us clew by now.
Don't worry about the shining Nakama action, if this is indeed a good parameter to spot a strawhat (hence it's presence), it can in fact happen at anytime, even after the arc itself.
Trust me, Carrot wasn't highlighted just because she was on the ship.. To begin with, this would mean taht Oda would have given himself work for nothing. Oda doesn't do that. Heisknown for his conscision. No, Carrot was depicted because she has a role to play.I know it's hard to understand and accept.. but trust me on that one: an author don't give 2 chapter plus 40 panel + multiple story arc to a character that "just happen to be there"... to begin with if Oda didn't needed this character, he would have given the SUlong to Pekom or Pedro and deleted Carrot.. it was very easy to do with a few twick in the narration. (like putting the sacrifice of Pedro at the very end of the arc for example). Carrot was highled - granted - because she was a Mink, but MOST OF ALL, because she was Carrot.
The capacity of a role CAN'T be introduced at a time when the character is only introduced in the middle of a war, and is still stuck in the middle of a war. In a war, you can only fight, there is no time nor place to do anything else.
There are no ships available to perform a ship's role, there is no peace available to do your unique thing except fighting. Did you ever see Carrot jumping on treetops or rooftops when she was on Onigashima or in the Skull Dome??
Also, Oda didn't introduce Yamato until the raid had already begun was because she was also supposed to be the hidden ally for Luffy and the alliance. At the start of the war, Kanjuro defected and Big Mom also allied with Kaido. The alliance didn't know about this until literally when they reached Onigashima on their ships, right before the war kicked off. That's where Yamato's introduction and defection of Kaido's crew comes into play to even the odds, and that is also why she had to appear much later in the arc.
Oda's not gonna sacrifice revealing a potential straw hats role early, if it means if its at the expense and cost of the story losing a big plot twist of revealing a character from the enemy side who is gonna defect and is strong enough to even the odds and even change the tides of the war into the alliances' favour.
Stop looking at everything just from the perspective of how you see it and how you want to see it, and start giving some more respect to the author and his story please.
Okay, first i had to look up thematic incarnation on Google and that term doesn't even exist, you just pulled that out of your ass.
Secondly, what your speaking about is something very general with few variations, that if we were to apply to the existing straw hats many would have very general if not overlapping themes. Sanji and Chopper kindness, Zoro bravery and loyalty, jinbe loyalty and wisdom etc, etc. They are general and they overlap, and you can pretty much apply this to any and all one piece characters in the series, not just the straw hats. Your 'thematic incarnation' rule is too broad and general and not a good measuring stick, since the only requirement is to have a 'good moral quality'. Yamato's moral quality can very easily be vigilance, a good contrast and opposite to Oden's carelessness and recklessness. Oden always leaves everything to till the last minute to act while Yamato always acts when required and strikes the iron while its hot. That is a very clear example what you like to call thematic incarnation that also contrasts well with Oden. And its also stronger than Carrot's Wonder, as Wonder doesn't necessarily translate to the benefits of others. Wonder is a much less noble thematic incarnation than Vigilance. Yamato wins the point here.
Yes, thematic incarnation is a neologism to describe a concept proper to One Piece. A LOT of my concepts are brand new (exclusive) and have not been theorized yet. They are just used by author instinctively or by experience. in the case of Oda, i'm still wondering if it is instinct or hardcore education.. I will have to ask him for that One Day..
Yes, there are overlaps in the thematic incarnations, for one reason: the narrative arc are not over yet, some are in the shadows. So I agree.. SOME of those are indeed debatable (i'm ready to do that, it can be fun) this is a very new territory. But not all. Sanji's "kindness" for example was recently validated. Carrot's eyes of wonder, same. Brook's joy same. Franky's pride, same. etc. For Chopper, Zoro and maybe Robin, there is room for improvment..
BUT
The concept still holds! Oda is undeniably trying to convey such "thematic incarnation" through his different strawhats. And that's logicalfor a world fantasy such as One Piece. It's not just a good moral quality, it's a theme taht is milked through the entire story of the character, through his action and will determine how the character will act in front of his final challenge and choice.
Trust me, I'm looking HARD for Yamato's thematic incarnation. I might not look like it, but I would actually love to see Carrot and Yamato join at the same time. So I'm looking also at every possible probabilities for Yamato.
Right now I have so suspect, but it's not obvious enough to be called a thematic incarnation. Vigilance could be a potential, but this them needs first to be hammered by Oda in his story and through Yamato.
This whole post here reeks of your bias bullshit. Yamato had to make the difficult choice of whether to go against Kaido or not, at the risk of losing and Kaido killing her, that was a question of life and death and a challenge of survival. Yamato also had to make the difficult choice of forgoing her revenge on Kaido and instead go save Onigashima from crashing into Wano and Kuri, that was a moral question and challenge of Yamato holding back her temptations or revenge.
No. If this was the case, we would have seen the struggle of Yamato with that choice. There was no struggle. Yamato just rebelled. You have to udnerstand that the final choice of a character needs to be visual and extremmely strong in term of impact.. This must be the very last option that presents to the character.. in fact in the best story, that choice takes the apparance of Sophie's choice, a choice between two bad options. Ex:
- Saving your friend but damning yourself to eternal hell
- Letting your friend die, living in weilth but living with the burden of guilt during the rest of your life.
You see, that's the choice of a hero. That's not something you just do.
If I were Oda, here is an exemple of a choice I could give to Yamato (don't expect this to happen, I'm inventing here):
- having a way to repulse Onigashima, but at the risk of putting her own life in danger..
Or
- having a way to repulse Onigashima, but at the risk of putting Momo and Luffy's life in danger ('cause why not).
Both choice are horrible.. someone risk to die.. but the author always makes one of the choices appears a bit more "heroic" than the other.. Therefore you will see here Yamato choose to risk her own life.. because that's who she is. Now the question is does she die or not? It's at the appreciation of the author, but she will have suceeded in her final challenge by choosing "wisely"
Carrot's challenge and choice of accepting Pedro's death is a much weaker one as there are no real consequences nor real action required to be taken. And Carrot didn't even really even accept Pedro's death, she was all fine with it Kuri and the start of onigashima, until she saw Perospero again during the raid. She went from sad in WCI, to fine in Kuri, to happy and fun again in Onigashima, to anger and anguish again when she encountered Perospero again. And fine again when Perospero was defeated by Neko, she goes back and fourth so easily like a seesaw, there was nothing strong, challenging about that. It was as easy as a performance. It also required little to no effort as everything happened in her head.
Her resolve is much weaker than Yamato's, therefore Yamato gets the full points here in the strong character arc and Carrot gets none.
Hm .. yes I agree, Carrot's choice is still a bit weak. And with What I just said to you, I just can't say that this is enough. I will therefore take 1 point away from Carrot in this section. She will therefore be at two, at the same point of Yamato.
No. A real choice in a story needs to be defining. Not something you already know you are going to do. read some books about the creation of screenplays, you will understand. I know those are difficult concept to grasp, it took myself multiple year to understand them. That's why i'm being patient here and why I'm explaining the most I can.
If Carrot had lot of favoritism by oda She would have had a lot of highlight moments that made her an important character throughout acts 1-3 of Wano. Oda could direct her character into working alongside with Luffy and zoro in helping the citizens of wano. Act 2 she would have been alongside with chopper to rescue Luffy from prison or helping the other strawhats at the plaza. Act 3 she should of work alongside the strawhats when they were at the tori gate, or do what nami, ussop and Chopper being the cheer leading squad at that moment in time. She could have taken down the drunken guards that were along the coast. She could have protected momo alongside with shinbou, fight against one of the flying six members. We could have seen her fight fully display and seeing her character grow as someone who could possibly be among the strawhats. We would have had more of added dialogue that relates to her own past life that could related to a future arc. She would of elaborate what the dawn Pedro spoke of. Luffy or any strawhats would have fought against perospero, Jack, or Kanjuro. Heck, the one-piece official YouTube channel and even toei animation would have marketed her as main character alongside the alliance. Her fight would have been highlight throughout the course of raid. Plus, we would of saw carrot in the special volume covers which are Volume 99, Volume 100, and volume 101. When the strawhats were all assemble doing there fighting pose ready for battle where was carrot among them? Taking pictures of their pose and crying she is not there? No, she went to do her own personal thing. Before the raid, when the strawhats were about toast for Jimbei for finally joining the crew, Carrot is hardly even mentioned as added member to the team. She is being push to the background and has become secondary character and having non-straw-hat deal with her own personal main antagonist “But wano is not carrot arc” So fucking what? Skypia was not about Robin However, she had a lot of highlight moment and insight to her character that fans can remember. Heck she was in various color spread alongside the strawhats. Carrot only had two she was not even with all strawhats. When you say Carrot is Favorties by Oda I have to facepalm I have asked are you really paying attention to this arc currently or still behind reading whole cake island because we have move on from that arc. Sure, big mom and her family are here in this arc, but big mom's family are not onigashima right now only one member family is.
Yes, thematic incarnation is a neologism to describe a concept proper to One Piece. A LOT of my concepts are brand new (exclusive) and have not been theorized yet. They are just used by author instinctively or by experience. in the case of Oda, i'm still wondering if it is instinct or hardcore education.. I will have to ask him for that One Day..
Yes, there are overlaps in the thematic incarnations, for one reason: the narrative arc are not over yet, some are in the shadows. So I agree.. SOME of those are indeed debatable (i'm ready to do that, it can be fun) this is a very new territory. But not all. Sanji's "kindness" for example was recently validated. Carrot's eyes of wonder, same. Brook's joy same. Franky's pride, same. etc. For Chopper, Zoro and maybe Robin, there is room for improvment..
BUT
The concept still holds! Oda is undeniably trying to convey such "thematic incarnation" through his different strawhats. And that's logicalfor a world fantasy such as One Piece. It's not just a good moral quality, it's a theme taht is milked through the entire story of the character, through his action and will determine how the character will act in front of his final challenge and choice.
Trust me, I'm looking HARD for Yamato's thematic incarnation. I might not look like it, but I would actually love to see Carrot and Yamato join at the same time. So I'm looking also at every possible probabilities for Yamato.
Right now I have so suspect, but it's not obvious enough to be called a thematic incarnation. Vigilance could be a potential, but this them needs first to be hammered by Oda in his story and through Yamato.
You're making this sound a lot more complicated than it is. Brook had his shadow stolen by Moriah, making him unable to leave the florian triangle. Therfore Moriah opposed Brook, making him an antagonist to Brook. It doesn't matter that Brook isn't the main character.
Moria only opposed brook in a physical form. read again thriller bark, you will understand that the real problem of Brook is with Ryuma, only because it's his shadow.
Again, it's all about the value, it's very important to make the nuance.
And since you've ignored this point twice in a row, I'll say it one more time, and if you don't respond to it again, I'll just assume you're ignoring it because you know I'm right. Even if you ignore the term antagonist, you can still say that every strawhat had a deep connection to the arc villain in the arc where they joined. Either debate this, or tell me why Carrot is an exception.
No you can't. Krieg for example has nothing to do with Sanji, Sanji is only here to feed him. The real battle of value comes against Luffy.
really, I'm not making that up.. it's storytelling 101.
When an author create an antagonist, he looks FIRST at the protagonist. And put similar value in conflict. In short, the best antagonists are the one who ressemble the most the heroes but they are also flawed, that's why they are always better, but can't win against the REAL qualities of the protagonist.
Look closely at the arc of baratie, meaning by that, go check it while you are reading those line. You will see at one point during the arc where Sanji decides to attack Gin. But in the end.. Gin defeat him physically. Now.. look closely at tha moment.. who wins that moment for you at the end ? Is it Gin ? or is it Sanji ?
Spoiler: It is sanji.. Here is why. Yes Gin defeats physically Sanji.. but Gin was already mentally defeated LONG AGO, at the very moment where Sanji gave Gin some food. (you can even see Gin cry during that moment when he eats) what happens in fact is that Gin was so submerged by the kindness of Sanji that he was litterally unable to strike the final blow.
(I'm also talking for you @Kai. Do , this is what a thematic incarnation is all about)
Gin was litterally defeated by Sanji's kindness and Sanji's cooking. (Yes, Oda is a master)
And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about conflict of values. The real antagonist of Sanji in the arc was Gin, because of all of this.. and..
(You can find the same process for Luffy against Krieg.. again, Krieg is like Luffy, strong, creative, fearless, confidence, He even surpass Luffy in everyway.. height, men, armure etc.. but he lack's the one thing that Luffy has: determination. )****
And this, my guys, is what a fight of value really is. And this is also what will make Sanji question himself.
**** if you understand correctly what I'm saying by now.. you should be able to see this pattern in another fight .. much.. much closer in our timeline.
It is VERY UNFAIR to compare Yamato and Carrot in this regard as carrot has 3 arcs to get all the points. Far longer than any straw hat who joined. Plus the majority of this interaction happens on the Sunny such as when Carrot bit Luffy's ears, the only real interaction Carrot and Luffy had during WCI on the island was when Luffy saved Carrot from Katakuri, also happening on the ship. These are feats and interactions that NO other straw hat claim, even though other straw hat had much deeper, dire and more meaningful interactions with Luffy than just travelling with him. Like for example Jinbe and Luffy meeting in Impel Down in Prison, Zoro and Luffy meeting as he about to be executed, Yamato and Luffy meeting in the middle of a war, right above kaido's head in a attic with explosive cuffs on with minutes away from Momo being executed. Carrot's in comparison are much more forgettable and much less memorable.
The other BIG ISSUE you are dismissing in regards to Carrot's interactions with Luffy and the crew is CONTINUITY. Whatever interaction with Luffy and the crew Carrot had and gained is completely forgotten and thrown out in Wano. Carrot returned to the Minks and remains to be so ever since. This alone hurts her interactions with Luffy overall, no matter how much they interacted before.
Oda NEVER forget interactions even when they are offscreen. May I remind you how much Chopper and Brook cried over Pedro when they were only together on screen for a few days ??
The thing is in reality, it was a few week !
Oda is not the type of author to throw that Away, he has never done that.
That is also why Yamato will never compare to Carrot in term of interactions with the crew.. NEVER. (unless of course she joins later)
Carrot doesn't even consider her interactions with Luffy to be all that precious, she wasn't there when the group shot happened as the crew assembled together for their first group shot after Jinbe's return. Carrot was missing from the most important interaction and group shot of Wano, the Yonko Saga and the Post Time Skip, and that was the group shot of the crew rallying around Luffy to help him reach Kaido so luffy can defeat him, the first true step to becoming Pirate King. Every single Straw Hat made the declaration this arc that Luffy will be the Pirate King, Yamato included. Carrot has made no such declaration in the span of 3 arcs. That speaks volume of how worthless Carrot and Luffy's interactions are if they don't even care about each others dreams.
Explain me why she cry then when Luffy is sick or ill or hurt.. Let me explain why she hug so much Jinbe .. because of Garchu ?? yeah.. find another excuse mate.
The most important group shot of Wano was this one. The other one was was optionnal.
Why ? because it was the first time the mugiwara were shown together since fishmen island. That's why.
The dude ignores the plot just for some Rabbit. The only thing that matters is Carrot and what she does, It doesn't matter whether or not she actually did something or is not even actively doing anything. It all just revolves around Carrot somehow. The clown escaped the circus, it's a shame.
simple: because of cherry picking. He thinks those are unnecessary because they’re not favoring Carrot. He will count if the “pillars” favoring Carrot, but think (by his own meaning) that those are unnecessary if those against Carrot joining
Saying unlikely does not mean its impossible. Even you acknowledge the possibility of Yamato's role being revealed can still happen in this arc and would count as a point in Yamato's favour.
Of course it's possible., just "unlikely" because this would mean that Oda is doing something special by retarding those introduction so much. and that's unlikely.
You also don't know if Carrot being on the mast is because that will be Carrot's role on the ship as per Oda's intention, of if Carrot's doing it just because she's never left Zou before, so she climbs the mast to watch the beautiful oceans as its a once in a lifetime chance, until she has to leave the crew and return to Zou at the end of the Wano arc with her fellow minks. That is another possibility that can happen as part of Oda's plans, that you didn't take into consideration.
No. If this was the case, we would have seen the struggle of Yamato with that choice. There was no struggle. Yamato just rebelled. You have to udnerstand that the final choice of a character needs to be visual and extremmely strong in term of impact.. This must be the very last option that presents to the character.. in fact in the best story, that choice takes the apparance of Sophie's choice, a choice between two bad options. Ex:
- Saving your friend but damning yourself to eternal hell
- Letting your friend die, living in weilth but living with the burden of guilt during the rest of your life.
You see, that's the choice of a hero. That's not something you just do.
If I were Oda, here is an exemple of a choice I could give to Yamato (don't expect this to happen, I'm inventing here):
- having a way to repulse Onigashima, but at the risk of putting her own life in danger..
Or - having a way to repulse Onigashima, but at the risk of putting Momo and Luffy's life in danger ('cause why not).
Both choice are horrible.. someone risk to die.. but the author always makes one of the choices appears a bit more "heroic" than the other.. Therefore you will see here Yamato choose to risk her own life.. because that's who she is. Now the question is does she die or not? It's at the appreciation of the author, but she will have suceeded in her final challenge by choosing "wisely"
That's cause you don't need to show something that is damn obvious!
Kaido forced Yamato into prison when she was a baby, and that's when yamato first started wanting to go against her father.
In Yamato's flashback with Ace, Yamato already showed Ace her resolve by following Ace's actions and breaking Kaido's dragon statue. Ace made Yamato to make a solemn call to take down Kaido, when before then Yamato had never considered of going against her father with real action.
Then during the Onigashima raid, when Yamato confirmed that her handcuffs were indeed explosive, she again struggled to believe that her father would do this, making her struggle and move her heart in another direction once again.
The reason why she still had some reservations was because she still wanted to believe that Kaido was her father, it wasn't until when Yamato fought Kaido 1v1 on the rooftop and kaido said to Yamato straight to her face: 'Yes, i am trying to kill you", did Yamato finally lose all hope and finally gave into the reality that they will never be father and child ever again.
Yamato was ALWAYS going to go against Kaido, she was always sure of that, what she WASN'T sure of was if Kaido still loved and cared for her and if she would regret taking down the last person she had as a family (as far as we know Kaido and Yamato are the only oni's alive left), that's where the struggle comes in. She constantly struggled with that question. And Yamato can't know that until she asks him straight in the face, not pondering alone all by herself in a prison cell.
Just because Oda doesn't spell it out specifically for your precious little self, doesn't mean it isn't there. I can't believe i even have to write this! Oda probably doesn't even know that there is a random user on Worstgen concerned that the author forgot about Yamato's struggle. Get off your high horse please.
and if you want to post your theories and hypothesis, there’s another section in this website called “ONE PIECE THEORIES AND SPECULATIONS.” You can simply copy & paste your blog there and try to convince people. Simple
She’s having lesser role even than Zeus means that she’s irrelevant. It’s not rocket science. You were the one who said so yourself that every Straw Hat needs to be important BEFORE joining. If Carrot joins post WCI, that’s understandable. But if Carrot joins after Wano? She’s irrelevant in Wano and you can’t change that.
Before joining means before = from the beginning of the story to the moment of "joining" This is not rocket science, stop arguing for meaningless things..
New goalposts because I explained & gave example LMAO. And that was pre-timeskip time, where Oda still had much time to explain.
New goalposts again. Not surprising
And that’s what you want to believe, not how you see how the story goes. Pretty much contradicting your own words again
And this page counters that. Has Carrot had this amazing 2 page of combination attack with Luffy? IIRC there’s none. Even Oda intentionally made Yamato revert back to her human form while Luffy was about to be there.
I'm talking about the way oda draws them Daredevil. Meaning how the page is formed, how the character occupy the space. How the line are constructed. The nature of the composition. The impactof the revelation. The quality of the details. etc. basic artistic stuff okay ?
Those differences in those two similar situation (revelation of power) are undeniable. Any artist with at least 200hours of drawing would confirm you that. And it goes in favor of:
and another thing about which Oda prefers is the relevance Oda gives to Yamato. If he prefers Carrot; again, he could’ve simply given Yamato’s relevance to Carrot. What I meant manga panels is not just the drawing, but also the dialogue and context. Aren’t you an analyst? You should know that manga panels are complete package of drawing & dialogue. But instead, you cherry picked anything just to fulfill your agenda.
Even when we give you the real image, you said “bUt C4rRoT iS tHe cEnT3R” and you’re trying so hard to prove you’re an analyst. If you’re an analyst, you should know that image and dialogue can’t be separated.
Yes, Carrot is in the center. PLAIN center. There is just no other way to put it:
Either you are an artist (or an art analyst) and you understand that putting a character with such an history in complete center on such an important panel has a value in term of impact and message..
Or you don't understand how composition work and .. well then ask question but don't laugh when we are replying to you.
You should know what subtext means. Even if you are not an analyst.
Because you keep answering with your hypothesis, analysis, theories. Even if you based from manga, you intentionally edit it to fulfill your own agenda.
“Suspect” and yeah you’re still discrediting one of Oda’s main target audiences. And we all can see who has got his brain twisted to the point of being delusional
Luffy freeing yamato from her shackles, Luffy coming in to help Yamato with fighting kaido, are these not actions?
Yamato seeing Luffy clash with Kaido with AdvCoC, his presence there changed Yamato's mind from wanting to fight Kaido herself, to giving Kaido to Luffy, was that not Yamato respecting Luffy?
Yamato went from wanting to take down Kaido herself, to giving that role to Luffy. Did Luffy not free Yamato's mind from getting back at kaido?
Nope, this doesn't change anything. yamato needs to be changed by luffy deeply during the PRESENT timeline and this change as to be clear and clarified.
Yamato always knew that Luffy would be the one to defeat Kaido. so wrong.
Yup. Why ? Because the panel of Yamato saying "I will sail with Luffy" only confirms that Yamato thinks that she will sail with Luffy. The panel of Carrot with the strawhats, confirms her relationship with them and is the best indicator for her as a potential crewmate.
Carrot: the sea is wonderland! (Never specifically mentioning about joining the crew)
C4N: that’s it! That’s the CLEW! Carrot will join!
Yamato: I will go out to sea with Luffy and get stronger after I kick you out from Wano, Kaido! (Specifically mentioning “WITH LUFFY”)
C4N: Yamato is red herring for Carrot
Yup. Why ? Because the panel of Yamato saying "I will sail with Luffy" only confirms that Yamato thinks that she will sail with Luffy. The panel of Carrot with the strawhats, confirms her relationship with them and is the best indicator for her as a potential crewmate.
You can't just deny that oden joined Whitebeard just to carve on some stones and not also because he wanted to go on an adventure and see the world. You can't just deny and omit facts from your argument when they don't work in your favour. That is a novice debater level mistake.
Yamato is the one who created Ace's Vivre Card, which is what allowed Luffy to be involved in Marineford, a major turning point and defining moment in the series as well as one of the biggest character moments for Luffy. That's a huge connection between the two, especially when Yamato would have also been able to share in Luffy's grief by watching Ace's Vivre Card burn up. Yamato is going to be one of the few people outside of Luffy's family and crew who understood Luffy's grief when Ace died, just like Jinbe at the time.
The role that Carrot has is something YOU believe in and reinforced by no one but YOURSELF, YOU telling YOURSELF that yamato is momo's guardian and that Carrot is the Sentry, and that she is far more important to the story than what the manga would otherwise tell you to believe. You literally told us that YOU don't use the manga as evidence and YOU don't need it because you have come up with something different to the manga.
You really are so oblivious as to not even realize that what you consider as role for Carrot in the manga is something that you made up yourself and doesn't exist.
All you have been telling me is to take your words for truth and fact, when those words of truth and fact are of your own creation that have had not imput or help directly from the author.
On the one hand you're telling me to take your words as truth and fact and as canon to the manga, yet on the other hand your telling me all your theories, arguments and predictions have nothing to do with and exist outside the manga!
All your patterns, rules, can's and can't be's and so many other stuff are used to make your theory. In order for all of this to be true in the manga and exist and match everything in your theory- Oda would have to see your blog and re-write and change a lot of things with your blogs as reference accordingly.
You already admitted to me before that you know this which why you are so fierce in pushing it. So Oda can see your blog, approve it, and make the changes accordingly.
And your STILL asking me why this is unfair??? This isn't just unfair, this is bogus! I'm done here.
And Carrot is also not the best candidate at this very moment, cause at this very moment Carrot is nowhere to be found in the story, she disappeared many chapters ago.
The capacity of a role CAN'T be introduced at a time when the character is only introduced in the middle of a war, and is still stuck in the middle of a war. In a war, you can only fight, there is no time nor place to do anything else.
Yes they can actually.
Usopp's ability was introduced during a fight. Jinbe's ability were introduced while fleeing a litteral war zone. If you want to you can actually make a lot of things during the war. It's all about creativity. And that's not Oda's weak point.
There are no ships available to perform a ship's role, there is no peace available to do your unique thing except fighting. Did you ever see Carrot jumping on treetops or rooftops when she was on Onigashima or in the Skull Dome??
it's not about doing the role on the ship, it's about introducing some specificity for the job. Example for Carrot : the ability to jump high and spot things far as a look out. See ? Easy, simple, and it can take place in battle. Oda already introduced Carrot's ability, he doesn't need to do it again. But he needs to do it for Yamato.
Also, Oda didn't introduce Yamato until the raid had already begun was because she was also supposed to be the hidden ally for Luffy and the alliance. At the start of the war, Kanjuro defected and Big Mom also allied with Kaido. The alliance didn't know about this until literally when they reached Onigashima on their ships, right before the war kicked off. That's where Yamato's introduction and defection of Kaido's crew comes into play to even the odds, and that is also why she had to appear much later in the arc.
Oda's not gonna sacrifice revealing a potential straw hats role early, if it means if its at the expense and cost of the story losing a big plot twist of revealing a character from the enemy side who is gonna defect and is strong enough to even the odds and even change the tides of the war into the alliances' favour.
Stop looking at everything just from the perspective of how you see it and how you want to see it, and start giving some more respect to the author and his story please.
The role that Carrot has is something YOU believe in and reinforced by no one but YOURSELF, YOU telling YOURSELF that yamato is momo's guardian and that Carrot is the Sentry, and that she is far more important to the story than what the manga would otherwise tell you to believe. You literally told us that YOU don't use the manga as evidence and YOU don't need it because you have come up with something different to the manga.
No. It's not just because of me, but because of the story. I know it's hard to understand.. but until you respect what I say, I will never cease to say it:
The story is hitting at Carrot becoming a strawhat and there is nothing you can do about that. Sorry.
You really are so oblivious as to not even realize that what you consider as role for Carrot in the manga is something that you made up yourself and doesn't exist.
No, I'm just confident in my knowledge of the story and storytelling :) At this point I've understood that most of you are unable to see the obvious.. but i'm not gonna give up trying to convince you
All you have been telling me is to take your words for truth and fact, when those words of truth and fact are of your own creation that have had not imput or help directly from the author.
Because you don't understand what I'm talking about .. that's why.. sadly.. the only thing I can invite you to do, is to readsome book about the creation of stories. I'm being very patient here. But i'm in the position of the doctor explaining the vaccin to an antivaxxer here..
On the one hand you're telling me to take your words as truth and fact and as canon to the manga, yet on the other hand your telling me all your theories, arguments and predictions have nothing to do with and exist outside the manga!
All your patterns, rules, can's and can't be's and so many other stuff are used to make your theory. In order for all of this to be true in the manga and exist and match everything in your theory- Oda would have to see your blog and re-write and change a lot of things with your blogs as reference accordingly.
You already admitted to me before that you know this which why you are so fierce in pushing it. So Oda can see your blog, approve it, and make the changes accordingly.
Of course, Oda would change a lot of things, firstly because I think that he might not be aware of all the concept I'm describing.. I think Oda is fonctionning from instinct.
And Carrot is also not the best candidate at this very moment, cause at this very moment Carrot is nowhere to be found in the story, she disappeared many chapters ago.
That's cause you don't need to show something that is damn obvious!
Kaido forced Yamato into prison when she was a baby, and that's when yamato first started wanting to go against her father.
In Yamato's flashback with Ace, Yamato already showed Ace her resolve by following Ace's actions and breaking Kaido's dragon statue. Ace made Yamato to make a solemn call to take down Kaido, when before then Yamato had never considered of going against her father with real action.
Then during the Onigashima raid, when Yamato confirmed that her handcuffs were indeed explosive, she again struggled to believe that her father would do this, making her struggle and move her heart in another direction once again.
The reason why she still had some reservations was because she still wanted to believe that Kaido was her father, it wasn't until when Yamato fought Kaido 1v1 on the rooftop and kaido said to Yamato straight to her face: 'Yes, i am trying to kill you", did Yamato finally lose all hope and finally gave into the reality that they will never be father and child ever again.
Yamato was ALWAYS going to go against Kaido, she was always sure of that, what she WASN'T sure of was if Kaido still loved and cared for her and if she would regret taking down the last person she had as a family (as far as we know Kaido and Yamato are the only oni's alive left), that's where the struggle comes in. She constantly struggled with that question. And Yamato can't know that until she asks him straight in the face, not pondering alone all by herself in a prison cell.
Just because Oda doesn't spell it out specifically for your precious little self, doesn't mean it isn't there. I can't believe i even have to write this! Oda probably doesn't even know that there is a random user on Worstgen concerned that the author forgot about Yamato's struggle. Get off your high horse please.
Dude.. the final choice of a story MUST be obvious. If not, the author risk the consistancy of his entire story.
The final choice has litterally on it's shoulder the ENTIRE CLIMAX of the damn story. So OF COURSE it needs to be obvious for the reader.. the reader NEEDS to understand the importance of such a choice.
That's why Sanji has taken so long in choosing beteen Luffy and the marriage and that's why Robin as taken so long to choose between living or dying.
Right now, such a choice doesn NOT exist for Yamato. It can happen but only the future will say.
Brand new means brand new. In all my years of analysing the constructions of stories, I've NEVER seen those concept theorized.. Because mostly they are instinctive for the authors.
Before joining means before = from the beginning of the story to the moment of "joining" This is not rocket science, stop arguing for meaningless things..
I'm talking about the way oda draws them Daredevil. Meaning how the page is formed, how the character occupy the space. How the line are constructed. The nature of the composition. The impactof the revelation. The quality of the details. etc. basic artistic stuff okay ?
Those differences in those two similar situation (revelation of power) are undeniable. Any artist with at least 200hours of drawing would confirm you that. And it goes in favor of:
and now you want to talk about image but ignoring the context. That’s why people treat you as a whole circus because you’re trying so hard to prove yourself the most intelligent being here only to prove yourself otherwise.
and still doesn’t change the fact that Yamato has 2 page of attack combination with Luffy. You can be blind and ignore it but the truth is still here:
“I’m usually right when it comes to storytelling” And everybody can tell that you’re so infatuated with fictions instead of facts. No wonder you’re so delusional.
Yes, Carrot is in the center. PLAIN center. There is just no other way to put it:
Either you are an artist (or an art analyst) and you understand that putting a character with such an history in complete center on such an important panel has a value in term of impact and message..
Or you don't understand how composition work and .. well then ask question but don't laugh when we are replying to you.
You should know what subtext means. Even if you are not an analyst.
Oh yes I’m an artist. You pretty much will be surprised how good I can draw. I can pretty much show it here:
“Or you don't understand how composition work and .. well then ask question but don't laugh when we are replying to you.” Okay then artist, explain about Fibonacci Sequence, Golden Ratio, and also about figure drawing. What’s the difference between male figure, female figure, and design figure.
And no, Jinbe is in the center. Not Carrot. The page was there to celebrate Jinbe finally appeared and officially joined the crew. It’s not about Carrot, it’s about Jinbe. And still Wanda was there to only for you to ignore.
It’s really funny that you say you’re the analyst only for you to not understand. Or as I say: read the context?
Yes, you don’t care because the mistakes are not in favor for Carrot. You can keep coping, the facts are still there. If I may suggest you to start elevate your brain quality so you can make a difference between facts and fictions
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