Spoiler Unfiltered Kingdom Talks - Historical info & all that jazz (Beware)
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@Elder Lee Hung i was rereading the chapters that cover the events of Kouretsu and Shunshinkin's deaths.
I want your opinion on a small and sloppy theory i have.
Shunshinskin seems to be rather competent, and an intelligent man. He helped Chu become as strong as it did....
I want your opinion on a small and sloppy theory i have.
Shunshinskin seems to be rather competent, and an intelligent man. He helped Chu become as strong as it did....
so why on earth would he throw it all away by making Kouretsu's brother the King of Chu? This mf clearly is just as bad as the Zhao royalty when it comes to depravity, and probably just as stupid:
If we are presuming Rien is telling the full truth, the plan would have been pretty perfect for Shunshinkun. He can educate his son and make him a good leader....
So why would he throw it away?
Maybe.... he wanted to replace Kouretsu with a younger man.... skilled in both martial arts and with a brilliant mind.
Maybe he wanted Shouheikun to become King?
that way the royal bloodline would remain
I know this theory has a lot of holes in it, like how the Chu would never accept a Qin court official(Chief of Military at that) as a King in it's current circumstances, but I think I'm on to something.
Thoughts?
If we are presuming Rien is telling the full truth, the plan would have been pretty perfect for Shunshinkun. He can educate his son and make him a good leader....
So why would he throw it away?
Maybe.... he wanted to replace Kouretsu with a younger man.... skilled in both martial arts and with a brilliant mind.
Maybe he wanted Shouheikun to become King?
that way the royal bloodline would remain
I know this theory has a lot of holes in it, like how the Chu would never accept a Qin court official(Chief of Military at that) as a King in it's current circumstances, but I think I'm on to something.
Thoughts?
@Elder Lee Hung i was rereading the chapters that cover the events of Kouretsu and Shunshinkin's deaths.
I want your opinion on a small and sloppy theory i have.
Shunshinskin seems to be rather competent, and an intelligent man. He helped Chu become as strong as it did....
I want your opinion on a small and sloppy theory i have.
Shunshinskin seems to be rather competent, and an intelligent man. He helped Chu become as strong as it did....
so why on earth would he throw it all away by making Kouretsu's brother the King of Chu? This mf clearly is just as bad as the Zhao royalty when it comes to depravity, and probably just as stupid:
If we are presuming Rien is telling the full truth, the plan would have been pretty perfect for Shunshinkun. He can educate his son and make him a good leader....
So why would he throw it away?
Maybe.... he wanted to replace Kouretsu with a younger man.... skilled in both martial arts and with a brilliant mind.
Maybe he wanted Shouheikun to become King?
that way the royal bloodline would remain
I know this theory has a lot of holes in it, like how the Chu would never accept a Qin court official(Chief of Military at that) as a King in it's current circumstances, but I think I'm on to something.
Thoughts?
If we are presuming Rien is telling the full truth, the plan would have been pretty perfect for Shunshinkun. He can educate his son and make him a good leader....
So why would he throw it away?
Maybe.... he wanted to replace Kouretsu with a younger man.... skilled in both martial arts and with a brilliant mind.
Maybe he wanted Shouheikun to become King?
that way the royal bloodline would remain
I know this theory has a lot of holes in it, like how the Chu would never accept a Qin court official(Chief of Military at that) as a King in it's current circumstances, but I think I'm on to something.
Thoughts?
I imagine if he wanted Shouheikun to become King, he would just bypass this guy and approach Shouheikun directly. Which we have no evidence of.
It’s possible his plan was to instate the younger brother, then bring Shouheikun to Chu, then assassinate the younger brother and enstate Shouheikun but there’s not much evidence of that. I would imagine that if this was the plan, then at bare minimum the Chu court would have whispered about it and he wouldn’t have been killed because everyone knew he didn’t want Kouretsu’s brother to take over, but again no evidence.
Yeah I always saw the Chu court as similarly depraved as the Zhao court, just stronger and more competent. But similarly deluded.
It’s possible his plan was to instate the younger brother, then bring Shouheikun to Chu, then assassinate the younger brother and enstate Shouheikun but there’s not much evidence of that. I would imagine that if this was the plan, then at bare minimum the Chu court would have whispered about it and he wouldn’t have been killed because everyone knew he didn’t want Kouretsu’s brother to take over, but again no evidence.
Yeah I always saw the Chu court as similarly depraved as the Zhao court, just stronger and more competent. But similarly deluded.
tbh Shunshinkun looks like a dumbass eitherway.
1. If Rien's tale is accurate, he literally would be dooming Chu in a crucial period of the warring states period by placing Kouretsu's brother on the brother. Imagine if that guy decided to execute Kouen, Karin or Renpa or something stupid like that? Qin would definitely take advantage of a king like that.
2. If my theory is true..... yeah even if a willing Shouheikun as king would have been a force to be reckoned with,..... he still got assassinated.
Apparently the brother will be relevant in history spoilers.... I'm curious to see how that will go.
1. If Rien's tale is accurate, he literally would be dooming Chu in a crucial period of the warring states period by placing Kouretsu's brother on the brother. Imagine if that guy decided to execute Kouen, Karin or Renpa or something stupid like that? Qin would definitely take advantage of a king like that.
2. If my theory is true..... yeah even if a willing Shouheikun as king would have been a force to be reckoned with,..... he still got assassinated.
Apparently the brother will be relevant in history spoilers.... I'm curious to see how that will go.
I don’t see Shunshinkun as dumb by any stretch, Shunshinkun was basically the most powerful individual in China when he died, and in this manga you don’t get there by being dumb. Literally Shunshinkun had amassed more power than his own King.
Your theory is possible but I also think it betrays the heart of Shouheikun’s story.
Shouheikun has the severe meltdown that he does because no one in Chu ever came for him. He felt unwanted by his own state, a pariah because of his birth and family. That’s why he believes so strongly in meritocracy, the idea that one’s fate is determined by their merit and not by birth. He was betrayed by his own birth and that’s why he was sent to Qin and abandoned by his family and his people. It had nothing to do with him but was a product of his blood.
So Shunshinkun trying to bring Shouheikun back to Chu undermines the meltdown he has later I think. Shunshinkun is that flawless conservative archetype, he rose to the pinnacle of China but was undermined by his own inability to act outside of tradition.
He reminds me of the Chad Radahn. The “strongest” motherfucker in the world, ultimately defined by his inability to let go of convention and tradition. In Shunshinkun’s case it literally killed him lol.
Shouheikun has the severe meltdown that he does because no one in Chu ever came for him. He felt unwanted by his own state, a pariah because of his birth and family. That’s why he believes so strongly in meritocracy, the idea that one’s fate is determined by their merit and not by birth. He was betrayed by his own birth and that’s why he was sent to Qin and abandoned by his family and his people. It had nothing to do with him but was a product of his blood.
So Shunshinkun trying to bring Shouheikun back to Chu undermines the meltdown he has later I think. Shunshinkun is that flawless conservative archetype, he rose to the pinnacle of China but was undermined by his own inability to act outside of tradition.
He reminds me of the Chad Radahn. The “strongest” motherfucker in the world, ultimately defined by his inability to let go of convention and tradition. In Shunshinkun’s case it literally killed him lol.
the issue I have with that is that there has to be reason for the sudden change of heart
"I can say with confidence that it is certainly not due to him getting cold feet and pulling out due to fear".
I feel like this is Hara introducing a mystery for the readers to speculate on.
Why would Shunshinkun go back on the plan? If it wasn't out of cowardice, why would he? There has to an answer, and I don't really believe that him being conversative is the answer, but we'll have to see. I refuse to believe a man like Shunshinkun would settle for such a shitty replacement for Kouretsu..... it would literally be destroying his life's work.
And fair point about how it undermines Shouheikun's story.
I feel like this is Hara introducing a mystery for the readers to speculate on.
Why would Shunshinkun go back on the plan? If it wasn't out of cowardice, why would he? There has to an answer, and I don't really believe that him being conversative is the answer, but we'll have to see. I refuse to believe a man like Shunshinkun would settle for such a shitty replacement for Kouretsu..... it would literally be destroying his life's work.
And fair point about how it undermines Shouheikun's story.
the issue I have with that is that there has to be reason for the sudden change of heart
"I can say with confidence that it is certainly not due to him getting cold feet and pulling out due to fear".
I feel like this is Hara introducing a mystery for the readers to speculate on.
Why would Shunshinkun go back on the plan? If it wasn't out of cowardice, why would he? There has to an answer, and I don't really believe that him being conversative is the answer, but we'll have to see. I refuse to believe a man like Shunshinkun would settle for such a shitty replacement for Kouretsu..... it would literally be destroying his life's work.
And fair point about how it undermines Shouheikun's story.
I feel like this is Hara introducing a mystery for the readers to speculate on.
Why would Shunshinkun go back on the plan? If it wasn't out of cowardice, why would he? There has to an answer, and I don't really believe that him being conversative is the answer, but we'll have to see. I refuse to believe a man like Shunshinkun would settle for such a shitty replacement for Kouretsu..... it would literally be destroying his life's work.
And fair point about how it undermines Shouheikun's story.
Is it Shouheikun related? I still doubt it but there’s got to be more here. Definitely a mystery I think Hara will bring up later.
We'll definitely learn more about Shunshinkun. Likely when we get properly introduced to the current King of Chu....
if it isn't Shouheikun related, I don't know what it could be to be perfectly honest.
Maybe Shouheikun learning that Shunshinkun planned to make him king will encourge his betrayal or him taking up the crown of Chu?
I'm not sure....
Maybe Shouheikun learning that Shunshinkun planned to make him king will encourge his betrayal or him taking up the crown of Chu?
I'm not sure....
Uncensored (minor) historical spoilers ahead.
I was having a look at a martial tier list I am making (stand by for that) and I made an interesting observation around Shibasaku:
The wings on his helmet reminded me somewhat of the 6 wings Sei bestowed upon his 6 Greats:
I will now post a brief, minor historical spoiler-ish summary on Shibasaku that I found on Reddit:
Sima Cuo - Shi Ba Saku (First expansion of Qin):
Considered the best Qin general in history before the deeds of Bai Qi and Wang Jian. Sima Cou from the legendary Sima family had an impecable military career and was the first great military expansionist for Qin, by his command Qin conquered and subdued the States of Shu and Ba, he had a successful campaign in Wei as well and an attack on Chu, setting the basis of the Qin state as a military superpower, he created a momentum that [Hakuki] took pretty good advantage of.
You see while generals like Ouki, Koshou, and Kyou were irl Great Generals of Qin, their actual achievements are not anywhere near as romanticized as they are in the manga. Shibasaku is quite different, historically he was a majorly successful great general and one of the most important in Qin history. I have even seen some sources call him one of the top 4 most important generals in Qin history next to Hakuki, Ousen, and Mouten.
There is a famous story about Shibasaku from the times just before the formation of the original 6 Great Generals of Qin:
Back when the state of Qin was small and weak, King Shou summoned Shibasaku and another general (forgot who, doesn’t matter) to talk with them about what they believed the objective of the Qin military should be.
The first general laid out a plan that we would actually see Shouheikun attempting to execute in the actual Kingdom manga: conquering the state of Han and using the conquered territory as a checkmate strategy against all of the other states.
Shibasaku then argued that the first general’s plan would never work, as Qin was too small and weak to defend itself from the other states ganging up on them if they attempted the Han strategy. He instead argued that Qin should subdue the aforementioned Shu and Ba, and then did so before having more success in Wei and Chu. It was by Shibasaku’s strategy and advice (and later Hakuki and the rest of the Qin 6) that Qin went from being a Han-tier state to a military superpower and the second strongest in China.
Bringing this back full circle to what I posted about Ei Sei’s 6 being granted “wings”, I believe Hara will give Shibasaku credit with the foundation of the Qin 6 system itself, since irl it was Shibasaku who originally birthed the Qin war machine. So I’m wondering if the wings on Shibasaku’s helmet are a reference to the wings Sei later gives his Qin 6. If so, Hara is truly a madman who has planned every ounce of his manga from the start.
@Owl Ki @MarineHQ @Bullet @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @SakazOuki @Cichy etc
I was having a look at a martial tier list I am making (stand by for that) and I made an interesting observation around Shibasaku:
The wings on his helmet reminded me somewhat of the 6 wings Sei bestowed upon his 6 Greats:
I will now post a brief, minor historical spoiler-ish summary on Shibasaku that I found on Reddit:
Sima Cuo - Shi Ba Saku (First expansion of Qin):
Considered the best Qin general in history before the deeds of Bai Qi and Wang Jian. Sima Cou from the legendary Sima family had an impecable military career and was the first great military expansionist for Qin, by his command Qin conquered and subdued the States of Shu and Ba, he had a successful campaign in Wei as well and an attack on Chu, setting the basis of the Qin state as a military superpower, he created a momentum that [Hakuki] took pretty good advantage of.
You see while generals like Ouki, Koshou, and Kyou were irl Great Generals of Qin, their actual achievements are not anywhere near as romanticized as they are in the manga. Shibasaku is quite different, historically he was a majorly successful great general and one of the most important in Qin history. I have even seen some sources call him one of the top 4 most important generals in Qin history next to Hakuki, Ousen, and Mouten.
There is a famous story about Shibasaku from the times just before the formation of the original 6 Great Generals of Qin:
Back when the state of Qin was small and weak, King Shou summoned Shibasaku and another general (forgot who, doesn’t matter) to talk with them about what they believed the objective of the Qin military should be.
The first general laid out a plan that we would actually see Shouheikun attempting to execute in the actual Kingdom manga: conquering the state of Han and using the conquered territory as a checkmate strategy against all of the other states.
Shibasaku then argued that the first general’s plan would never work, as Qin was too small and weak to defend itself from the other states ganging up on them if they attempted the Han strategy. He instead argued that Qin should subdue the aforementioned Shu and Ba, and then did so before having more success in Wei and Chu. It was by Shibasaku’s strategy and advice (and later Hakuki and the rest of the Qin 6) that Qin went from being a Han-tier state to a military superpower and the second strongest in China.
Bringing this back full circle to what I posted about Ei Sei’s 6 being granted “wings”, I believe Hara will give Shibasaku credit with the foundation of the Qin 6 system itself, since irl it was Shibasaku who originally birthed the Qin war machine. So I’m wondering if the wings on Shibasaku’s helmet are a reference to the wings Sei later gives his Qin 6. If so, Hara is truly a madman who has planned every ounce of his manga from the start.
@Owl Ki @MarineHQ @Bullet @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @SakazOuki @Cichy etc
Oh yeah historically Shibasaku was that guy. His fame gets overshadowed by Hakuki but it was Shibasaku who birthed the Qin war machine that ultimately unified China. Historically Ouki and Koshou were pretty mid compared to him. Hara seems to have taken a different route in the manga where Ouki is glorious. Lol
Uncensored (minor) historical spoilers ahead.
I was having a look at a martial tier list I am making (stand by for that) and I made an interesting observation around Shibasaku:
The wings on his helmet reminded me somewhat of the 6 wings Sei bestowed upon his 6 Greats:
I will now post a brief, minor historical spoiler-ish summary on Shibasaku that I found on Reddit:
Sima Cuo - Shi Ba Saku (First expansion of Qin):
Considered the best Qin general in history before the deeds of Bai Qi and Wang Jian. Sima Cou from the legendary Sima family had an impecable military career and was the first great military expansionist for Qin, by his command Qin conquered and subdued the States of Shu and Ba, he had a successful campaign in Wei as well and an attack on Chu, setting the basis of the Qin state as a military superpower, he created a momentum that [Hakuki] took pretty good advantage of.
You see while generals like Ouki, Koshou, and Kyou were irl Great Generals of Qin, their actual achievements are not anywhere near as romanticized as they are in the manga. Shibasaku is quite different, historically he was a majorly successful great general and one of the most important in Qin history. I have even seen some sources call him one of the top 4 most important generals in Qin history next to Hakuki, Ousen, and Mouten.
There is a famous story about Shibasaku from the times just before the formation of the original 6 Great Generals of Qin:
Back when the state of Qin was small and weak, King Shou summoned Shibasaku and another general (forgot who, doesn’t matter) to talk with them about what they believed the objective of the Qin military should be.
The first general laid out a plan that we would actually see Shouheikun attempting to execute in the actual Kingdom manga: conquering the state of Han and using the conquered territory as a checkmate strategy against all of the other states.
Shibasaku then argued that the first general’s plan would never work, as Qin was too small and weak to defend itself from the other states ganging up on them if they attempted the Han strategy. He instead argued that Qin should subdue the aforementioned Shu and Ba, and then did so before having more success in Wei and Chu. It was by Shibasaku’s strategy and advice (and later Hakuki and the rest of the Qin 6) that Qin went from being a Han-tier state to a military superpower and the second strongest in China.
Bringing this back full circle to what I posted about Ei Sei’s 6 being granted “wings”, I believe Hara will give Shibasaku credit with the foundation of the Qin 6 system itself, since irl it was Shibasaku who originally birthed the Qin war machine. So I’m wondering if the wings on Shibasaku’s helmet are a reference to the wings Sei later gives his Qin 6. If so, Hara is truly a madman who has planned every ounce of his manga from the start.
@Owl Ki @MarineHQ @Bullet @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @SakazOuki @Cichy etc
I was having a look at a martial tier list I am making (stand by for that) and I made an interesting observation around Shibasaku:
The wings on his helmet reminded me somewhat of the 6 wings Sei bestowed upon his 6 Greats:
I will now post a brief, minor historical spoiler-ish summary on Shibasaku that I found on Reddit:
Sima Cuo - Shi Ba Saku (First expansion of Qin):
Considered the best Qin general in history before the deeds of Bai Qi and Wang Jian. Sima Cou from the legendary Sima family had an impecable military career and was the first great military expansionist for Qin, by his command Qin conquered and subdued the States of Shu and Ba, he had a successful campaign in Wei as well and an attack on Chu, setting the basis of the Qin state as a military superpower, he created a momentum that [Hakuki] took pretty good advantage of.
You see while generals like Ouki, Koshou, and Kyou were irl Great Generals of Qin, their actual achievements are not anywhere near as romanticized as they are in the manga. Shibasaku is quite different, historically he was a majorly successful great general and one of the most important in Qin history. I have even seen some sources call him one of the top 4 most important generals in Qin history next to Hakuki, Ousen, and Mouten.
There is a famous story about Shibasaku from the times just before the formation of the original 6 Great Generals of Qin:
Back when the state of Qin was small and weak, King Shou summoned Shibasaku and another general (forgot who, doesn’t matter) to talk with them about what they believed the objective of the Qin military should be.
The first general laid out a plan that we would actually see Shouheikun attempting to execute in the actual Kingdom manga: conquering the state of Han and using the conquered territory as a checkmate strategy against all of the other states.
Shibasaku then argued that the first general’s plan would never work, as Qin was too small and weak to defend itself from the other states ganging up on them if they attempted the Han strategy. He instead argued that Qin should subdue the aforementioned Shu and Ba, and then did so before having more success in Wei and Chu. It was by Shibasaku’s strategy and advice (and later Hakuki and the rest of the Qin 6) that Qin went from being a Han-tier state to a military superpower and the second strongest in China.
Bringing this back full circle to what I posted about Ei Sei’s 6 being granted “wings”, I believe Hara will give Shibasaku credit with the foundation of the Qin 6 system itself, since irl it was Shibasaku who originally birthed the Qin war machine. So I’m wondering if the wings on Shibasaku’s helmet are a reference to the wings Sei later gives his Qin 6. If so, Hara is truly a madman who has planned every ounce of his manga from the start.
@Owl Ki @MarineHQ @Bullet @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @SakazOuki @Cichy etc
Spend the last couple days reading through some of the history spoilers and I really think Hara is being accurate with all the Zhao focus in his Manga. I thought he's showing all those battles because he stans RBK but it seems Zhao actually put up a real fight to Qin and repeatedly pushed them back...whereas after RBK fell Qin just rolled over the remaining states with Chu getting the major W over Shin and Mouten due to SHK's betrayal.
Hara probably makes the states put up a better fight in his Manga with Zhao being pretty accurate to RL.
@Elder Lee Hung @SakazOuki @Owl Ki @TheKnightOfTheSea @RayanOO @God Buggy
Hara probably makes the states put up a better fight in his Manga with Zhao being pretty accurate to RL.
@Elder Lee Hung @SakazOuki @Owl Ki @TheKnightOfTheSea @RayanOO @God Buggy
Historically King Sho was secretly ecstatic over Hakuki slaughtering Chouhei. Historically Zhao never recovered the numbers he took from them and that was a huge factor in their fall. And then Kanki made the advantage even larger.
It’s almost the opposite in the manga, Hakuki and Kanki slaughtering soldiers is always portrayed as a much bigger obstacle toward unification than it was portrayed as a good thing.
One of the biggest reasons Kingdom is not Chinese propaganda like people who have never read the series claim. Lol
It’s almost the opposite in the manga, Hakuki and Kanki slaughtering soldiers is always portrayed as a much bigger obstacle toward unification than it was portrayed as a good thing.
One of the biggest reasons Kingdom is not Chinese propaganda like people who have never read the series claim. Lol
