Spoiler Unfiltered Kingdom Talks - Historical info & all that jazz (Beware)

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
@MarineHQ you know, you say Kyou and Oukotsu are bums but…

Historically the only reason Chouhei happened was because Oukotsu pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei. The Zhao actually possessed much more territory but Oukotsu took it all from them when Renpa was in charge of defending it, and then pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei where Renpa was able to make his two year stand.

Also, you say Kyou and Oukotsu were the only Qin 6 to suffer defeats, and that is true so far in the manga, but historically Koshou was defeated by Chousha of the 3GH, in a battle where Renpa himself told the Zhao king not to fight Chousha because Renpa couldn’t see a chance at victory.

So literally Chousha won against Koshou in a scenario where Renpa told the Zhao King to not even fight lol.
 
@MarineHQ you know, you say Kyou and Oukotsu are bums but…

Historically the only reason Chouhei happened was because Oukotsu pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei. The Zhao actually possessed much more territory but Oukotsu took it all from them when Renpa was in charge of defending it, and then pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei where Renpa was able to make his two year stand.

Also, you say Kyou and Oukotsu were the only Qin 6 to suffer defeats, and that is true so far in the manga, but historically Koshou was defeated by Chousha of the 3GH, in a battle where Renpa himself told the Zhao king not to fight Chousha because Renpa couldn’t see a chance at victory.

So literally Chousha won against Koshou in a scenario where Renpa told the Zhao King to not even fight lol.
If we get to see that event in the manga I can almost promise you that the context will make Renpa look godly. Qin had a major numbers advantage in most of their battles in RL right ?

I bet that's the reason Renpa decided to fight a defensive battle in the first place. That's going to be yet another nutty feat added to Renpa’s arsenal as a general.

Also Chousha beat Koshou ?
Goddammit the 3GH supremacy doesn't know any limits
 
@MarineHQ you know, you say Kyou and Oukotsu are bums but…

Historically the only reason Chouhei happened was because Oukotsu pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei. The Zhao actually possessed much more territory but Oukotsu took it all from them when Renpa was in charge of defending it, and then pushed Renpa all the way back to Chouhei where Renpa was able to make his two year stand.

Also, you say Kyou and Oukotsu were the only Qin 6 to suffer defeats, and that is true so far in the manga, but historically Koshou was defeated by Chousha of the 3GH, in a battle where Renpa himself told the Zhao king not to fight Chousha because Renpa couldn’t see a chance at victory.

So literally Chousha won against Koshou in a scenario where Renpa told the Zhao King to not even fight lol.
If I recall correctly, there could be one caveat to the historical Oukotsu feat here...
I seem to recall that there is a debate about whether Ouki (Wang Qi) and Oukotsu (Wang He) are historically the same person. Hara has them as two people but this then means that Renpa being pushed back to Chouhei could be an Ouki feat instead of an Oukotsu one. Lol.
 
If I recall correctly, there could be one caveat to the historical Oukotsu feat here...
I seem to recall that there is a debate about whether Ouki (Wang Qi) and Oukotsu (Wang He) are historically the same person. Hara has them as two people but this then means that Renpa being pushed back to Chouhei could be an Ouki feat instead of an Oukotsu one. Lol.
Wasn’t there a panel with Ouki slaying the general they replaced Renpa with, with Ouki saying that switching out commanders was a terrible decision?
 
If we get to see that event in the manga I can almost promise you that the context will make Renpa look godly. Qin had a major numbers advantage in most of their battles in RL right ?

I bet that's the reason Renpa decided to fight a defensive battle in the first place. That's going to be yet another nutty feat added to Renpa’s arsenal as a general.

Also Chousha beat Koshou ?
Goddammit the 3GH supremacy doesn't know any limits
Iirc Renpa had a 200k vs 600k battle
Might have been this one :kayneshrug:
 
Aye, there is.

So we know Ouki was at Chouhei for certain though we don't know if he was there the entire time.
@Elder Lee Hung Ouki makes it seem like Renpa gave them one hell of a battle and if there really is a gigantic number gap I'm gonna question Gyou’Un's statement of Riboku being the strongest great heaven.

I mean enough is enough with those Godpa showings.
:crazwhat:
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Qin had a major numbers advantage in most of their battles in RL right ?
Not at this point in time. The Qin had numerical advantages against Zhao during Riboku’s era but that was because of Chouhei.

I bet that's the reason Renpa decided to fight a defensive battle in the first place. That's going to be yet another nutty feat added to Renpa’s arsenal as a general.
Well, that was already established in the manga. Renpa fought defensively because he would’ve gotten curb stomped offensively lol.

Not downplaying Renpa, any GG would have been curb stomped for fighting offensively in that scenario.

Also Chousha beat Koshou ?
Goddammit the 3GH supremacy doesn't know any limits
The 3GH wank never ends.

<<These are Chinese names>>

King ZhaoXiang of Qin, using the excuse of Zhao not handing over the castles as promised in an earlier deal, sent Hu Yang (Koshou) to attack E Yu, a castle of Zhao.
Zhao He, the ruler of Zhao, then appointed Zhao She (Chousha) to lead a reinforcing army to rescue E Yu. Zhao He equipped his troops with light armor for mobility and reached Qin forces’ rear. Qin forces, in fear of being trapped, lifted the siege and turn its full strength against the approaching Zhao forces. Zhao He hid most of his troops on a mountain, which he estimated the Qin troops would approach by dusk. Sure enough, the Qin forces approached, and Zhao He ambushed them in the dark. With determination and bravery Zhao She (Chousha) defeated the Qin forces. The ruler of Zhao rewarded Zhao She (Chousha) by making him the administrator of a district called Ma Fu (馬服 in present day north of Handan city in Hebei province).

^I think this alternating between Zhao He and Zhao She is probably a typo because the King of Zhao probably was not involved in this battle. But regardless Chousha was indeed the commander who beat Koshou, and Koshou’s name is never mentioned historically after this battle so it’s possible Hara would have Koshou killed outright by Chousha.

If I recall correctly, there could be one caveat to the historical Oukotsu feat here...
I seem to recall that there is a debate about whether Ouki (Wang Qi) and Oukotsu (Wang He) are historically the same person. Hara has them as two people but this then means that Renpa being pushed back to Chouhei could be an Ouki feat instead of an Oukotsu one. Lol.
Yeah you’re right. I did some research and it may have been Ouki. I really wonder why Hara split Ouki into two separate guys lol.

Maybe he wanted Ouki’s W’s to go to Ouki and the L’s to go to Oukotsu. Lol

Nah, I do think Oukotsu is slept on by MHQ.
 
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@MarineHQ Alright so if memory serves me right the 200k vs 600k i remember was from a statement some character made in the 3 kingdoms show and i watched it 3 years ago so take it with a grain of salt
Not sure if it's real or if it's even supposed to be this battle but:
Qin army: 550K
Zhao: 400-450K
Most sites i looked up said Lian po was replaced except this post from a dude on reddit who said Cho Katsu came with 200k men reinforcements and then replaced him which makes it really close to the original number we were looking for

*Lian Po leads 200k soldiers and establishes 3 lines of defens
*260 BC, June, Wang He leads the qin forces and breaks the first defensive line that Lian Po set up, killing 4 of zhao's chief lieutenants and taking two important strongholds
*260 BC, July, Zhao Kuo leads 200000 reinforcements to changping and takes command from Lian Po, Lian Po is sent back to Handan. Zhao Kuo leads his troops out of the forts and cities and begins to attack. Qin secretly replaces Wang He with Bai Qi (Hakuki)

Casualties:
Zhao: 400k (200k prisoners)
Qin: 200-250k

Funny thing they mentioned: Zhao king asks Cho Katsu if he can beat the Qin generals and he says he'll beat anyone other than Hakuki but Qin secretly replaced their commander with Hakuki right as he was deployed lol
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Historical spoiler FREE Kingdom theory:

I have another WorstGen classic for you guys here:

Shin will slay Renpa in Chu.

The evidence:

1. Renpa’s entire character arc revolves around him searching for the same fire that once burned within him during the era of the old Qin 6. He could not find this fire fighting Ousen and Kanki, and so the natural implication is that Renpa is searching for more valorous commanders like Ouki, Duke Hyou… or EOS Shin. Renpa facing EOS Shin could reawaken the old Fire he’s been searching for.

2. Shin’s entire relationship with Renpa involves Shin’s desire to surpass him and his era of warfare. Shin slaying Renpa would mark the moment where Shin literally and figuratively surpasses him and his era.

3. Renpa has stated he will die on the battlefield, and I’m sure Hara will grant him this wish. Honestly, who better to kill Renpa than Shin at EOS?

4. Shin literally stated multiple times at Sanyou that he would kill Renpa. Obviously this didn’t happen at Sanyou, but if Shin does kill Renpa in the future, these moments would serve as heavy foreshadowing.

And that’s it. I just think this would be absolutely perfect.

@Monet @Bepo @SakazOuki @FutureWarrior123 @Blackbeard @SakazOuki @Owl Ki @MarineHQ @TheKnightOfTheSea @God Buggy @RayanOO
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

N-notice me Rayan-senpai
Historical spoiler FREE Kingdom theory:

I have another WorstGen classic for you guys here:

Shin will slay Renpa in Chu.

The evidence:

1. Renpa’s entire character arc revolves around him searching for the same fire that once burned within him during the era of the old Qin 6. He could not find this fire fighting Ousen and Kanki, and so the natural implication is that Renpa is searching for more valorous commanders like Ouki, Duke Hyou… or EOS Shin. Renpa facing EOS Shin could reawaken the old Fire he’s been searching for.

2. Shin’s entire relationship with Renpa involves Shin’s desire to surpass him and his era of warfare. Shin slaying Renpa would mark the moment where Shin literally and figuratively surpasses him and his era.

3. Renpa has stated he will die on the battlefield, and I’m sure Hara will grant him this wish. Honestly, who better to kill Renpa than Shin at EOS?

4. Shin literally stated multiple times at Sanyou that he would kill Renpa. Obviously this didn’t happen at Sanyou, but if Shin does kill Renpa in the future, these moments would serve as heavy foreshadowing.

And that’s it. I just think this would be absolutely perfect.

@Monet @Bepo @SakazOuki @FutureWarrior123 @Blackbeard @SakazOuki @Owl Ki @MarineHQ @TheKnightOfTheSea @God Buggy @RayanOO
God I hope this happens

Hara has shown he's willing to change the fates of some characters if it better suits the story.

Prime examples would be:

Heki surviving the State of Ai arc
The Queen Mother's children not being executed
Ryofui faking his death and traveling to see the world Sei will make instead of committing suicide.

It would suit Renpa far more

There is one characters fate who I think is guaranteed to be changed: Kouen's

in history he commits suicide after losing to Ousen.

Here, he's definitely getting killed by Shin
 
"He's the real deal". In his very second appearance, Hara already started hyping him up.

I believe it was @Elder Lee Hung who said that if tiny states had dudes like Man'U and Sentou'un, the larger Han should have a general above even those two in overall capabilities.

I think it will turn out that he's an amazing defensive general. His head subordinate also seems interesting.
Sure but what is the real deal? I'm pretty sure he would say the same about CGR or Gyou'un or the likes of Akou on whom even Riboku commented on. Keep in mind I said I'm giving him benefit of the doubt for now to be on KoChou's level.

Right, but that wouldn't be going on the impression he's had, but just general prediction related to Hans top general. His character design is ok looking, his aura isn't shown anything special, there is no comparison portrayal made either with other characters, no feats or accomplishments are mentioned.

See and that's where it gets tricky. Man'U had the title of Great General in his state. Raku simply has the title of general in Han. And those states weren't relying on politics to stay alive, but purely ManU' s military prowess. Unlike the Han who has multiple times been stressed about their political importance and other states coming to their defense if attacked. Han's sole great general introduced in the series was Sei Kai the poison dude, and we saw a humongous gap between him and the generals of the other states that were sent.

Well you're mentioning his subordinate, did you forget Kochou had Gakuhakukou and other beast lookin mfs under him?
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Yeah @Xione Akou/Rokuomi level for Rakuakan? Cap lol, dude is going to be Juukou gang level at minimum. Probably mostly an intellectual general with some fighting ability similar to Keisha if I had to guess. That would be befitting of Han’s number one general. Yoku Yoku is probably going to be Han’s main martial power.
Juukou gang level would put him at around KoChou's level, which what I said he would be at due to benefit of the doubt of being Han's top general.


Han's top general before him was the poison guy.... So not sure why we are expecting Man'U / KoChou level to be the minimum for this guy with 0 portrayal, feat or hype.
 
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Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Long read but I’m extremely proud of this one lol.

Alright bois. I figured since I’ve never done a full post on this, I should now explain all the reasons I believe that Shibashou will be an end-of-series vassal to Ousen. I actually first posted this theory years back, and as soon as it was revealed that Shibashou and Ousen would directly battle in Hango, the theory gained a lot more traction in my mind. So some historical spoilers but please enjoy:

I will color explicit historical spoilers red so you guys know exactly when I’m spoiling and when I’m speculating.

1. The first thing to note about Shibashou is that historically, Shibashou is not killed or defeated at all in Zhao, he is simply dismissed from service. Historically we know that Shibashou was Riboku’s deputy in the final days of Zhao, and that he was ultimately dismissed when Riboku was [omitted for big spoilers], and literally nothing else. More on that later.

Now I am reminded of another character similar to Shibashou in Renpa who I think is being handled by Hara similarly to how Shibashou will be handled. Historically, after Renpa fled from Zhao, he never fought any more battles. He lived in Wei for a time, then he lived in Chu, then he died peacefully of old age in his sleep.

This is far from the Renpa Hara has written who actively fought for Wei and still fights for Chu and claims that he will die on the battlefield cough cough EOS Shin cough cough. Sorry, don’t know what came over me there. Anyway, with Renpa, Hara decided it was far more interesting to have Renpa remain an active battlefield commander after his defection from Zhao, and so he continues to write Renpa as an active battlefield commander.

So the precedent is already set for Hara to do something similar for a character who historically does not die in Zhao. This brings us to our next point:

2.The discrepancy between historical Shibashou and manga Shibashou.

Historcially Shibashou is almost the definition of a completely irrelevant commander. I have researched Sima Shang tirelessly and let me tell you, what I’ve posted on Shibashou is literally all I can find. This was certainly no general on par with your historical Renpa’s or Chousha’s or Rinshoujou’s, but manga Shibashou is the second most lengthily hyped general in the history of this manga behind Kou En himself.

So what gives? Why did Hara take such a relatively irrelevant general historically, and choose to make him the template for the enormously hyped Shibashou? Well, you could argue that Shibashou is simply meant to be an overwhelming opponent during the final days of Zhao’s life, but I suspect it’s more than that.

Hara’s Renpa was too great to simply die of old age in Chu, and I’ve long suspected that Hara plans more for his Shibashou than for him to simply ride off into the sunset and die in Seika without ever impacting the manga again after Zhao’s fall. Shibashou is a relatively young man, he could easily live another 30-40 years naturally before dying of old age, and if Shibashou were to continue to be an actively fighting commander in some capacity in that aspect, then by EOS he would be an older, more hardened warrior similar in age to current Bananji, ripe in experience and fully ready to be picked up by some sort of mega-commander at EOS. Which is a good Segway into our next point:

3. Ousen’s propensity for trying to recruit powerful commanders.

There has to be a term for this manga trope, but for now I’ll just call them the recruiter. Let’s define the recruiter as the type of manga character who is always trying to recruit powerful subordinates regardless of where their loyalties might lie. The most obvious example of this in other manga is Blackbeard from One Piece.

Blackbeard asks Ace to join his crew despite Ace hating him, and then Blackbeard asked Luffy to join his crew despite Luffy also hating him. Blackbeard was the exact type of mofo pretimeskip who simply wanted powerful subordinates under his wing that he could use for his own means, and he didn’t particularly care where he got them from.

At first Blackbeard’s attempts at recruiting people ended in hilarious failure, but eventually Oda rewarded Blackbeard with shockingly powerful subordinates like Shiryuu and Aokiji. The mangaka must eventually reward the recruiter’s propensity for recruiting with incredibly powerful subordinates of his own.

Now let’s look at Ousen. Ousen tried to recruit Kyou En which failed hilariously, then he tried to recruit Mouten which failed hilariously, then he tried to recruit f***ing Riboku himself which also of course ended hilariously.

Ousen is currently in the “hilariously failing” stage of his recruiting journey, which should naturally precede the phase where Ousen starts to gain subordinates who almost seem too powerful to actually serve him. With Blackbeard, this was Shiryu and Aokiji. With Ousen…well, who could possibly join him?

Shibashou is far from the only candidate who could potentially join up with EOS Ousen, but again look at everything we know about Shibashou so far: a seemingly irrelevant historical commander, perhaps no different from the likes of historical Enkan or Kotsuminhaku, who Hara took and made a Great Heaven level commander and has stressed the enormous power he possesses for five goddamn years, longer than any other commander in Kingdom but Kou En. A commander who does not die in Zhao, but lives on for potentially the next few decades.

I would argue that Ousen recruiting hugely powerful subordinates isn’t speculation but is almost guaranteed to happen in the future, the only question remaining is the question of who will join him. This brings us to our next point:

4. Shibashou’s loyalties.

So we have to ask ourselves, why would Shibashou even consider joining up with Ousen? And what might restrict him from joining up with Ousen? At first glance, it might appear that Shibashou cares only for Seika and nothing else but I would argue this is somewhat of a red herring. We can also gleam other aspects of Shibashou’s personality based on the details Hara has given us:

-Shibashou hates the Zhao court, probably for their incompetence, corruption, cruelty, and lack of empathy for anyone other than themselves.
-Shibashou also seems to heavily respect Riboku, undoubtedly for Riboku’s own knowledge and prowess at war.

So Shibashou hates incompetence, corruption, decadence, etc…and he really respects commanders who warrant respect through their actions and merit. There is one other thing Shibashou hates strongly enough to actually take his big gorilla ass from Seika and fight:

-Qin. Undoubtedly for their invading, innocent slaughtering, and war mongering tendencies.

So Shibashou holds no loyalty to any state in particular, only to his beloved Seika, and hates Qin enough to literally leave Seika to kill them.

So in order for Shibashou to consider joining up with someone like Ousen, Ousen would need to be someone who opposes a force like Qin. Now for those of you who actually know the trajectory Ei Sei’s story will take in the future, some giant fucking alarms should be ringing off in your mind right now about why someone like Shibashou would continue to wish to oppose Qin in the future, but I’m actually not going to spoil anything about Sei or Qin in the future. For now, let’s just continue to discuss things we know:

5. Ousen’s own loyalties

It should be clear by this point that Ousen holds no particular loyalty to Qin so I won’t discuss that in depth. What I will say is that Ousen and Shibashou already seem to ideologically agree about both Qin and Zhao:



This cannot be far from what Shibashou believes about states like Qin and Zhao. I’ve always seen Ousen as someone who wants to unify China before claiming the unified Kingdom for himself. If you’re Ousen, why start your own Kingdom from scratch and then have 7 other super Kingdoms to deal with, when instead you could high jack one of those super kingdoms and use it to eliminate the rest of them?

For Shibashou to even consider Ousen, Shibashou would need to first believe that Ousen is ideologically opposed to Qin and her war mongering tendencies…which Ousen absolutely seems to be, he is simply using Qin to ripen China for his own eventual rule. That’s the plan, anyway.

6. Ousen vs Shibashou at Hango

And now we reach Hango, where Shibashou and Ousen are currently on a crash course for one another. I think Hara will use this current battle to simply introduce each man to the other. Ousen will identify Shibashou as an enormous powerhouse, undoubtedly someone he’ll want in his own service, and Shibashou will identify Ousen as an intellect on a similar level to Riboku
himself, someone Shibashou already respects. I doubt Ousen will come within speaking proximity of Shibashou at Hango because Ousen probably won’t want none of that, but this battle will at least familiarize Shibashou and Ousen with each other the way battles familiarize enemy generals and will put Shibashou and Ousen on “speaking terms” for later when Ousen can approach Shibashou first through messages and diplomats rather than face to face meetings, eventually wearing Shibashou down into his service.

All Ousen would really need to do is slowly but surely convince Shibashou that he is actually an enemy of the evil Qin and that only by joining forces under a competent King (Ousen) can the two of them hope to succeed where Riboku and Shibashou failed. And on that subject:

7. Paralleling Ousen and Riboku

This is a more brief point but Ousen and Riboku are two characters who Hara has paralleled with each other on many occasions, and having both characters essentially have to work to obtain Shibashou as a vassal would be an extension of that Parrallel.

EDIT: It just keeps coming!


………

And that about does it for now. Obviously the Ousen as the final villain that @God Buggy just posted bleeds into this theory a bit and I think it works extremely well.

What do you guys think?

@Owl Ki @TheKnightOfTheSea @MarineHQ @God Buggy @Blackbeard @SakazOuki @FutureWarrior123 @Rumble @Shanks @Extravlad @Xione @RayanOO @Yo Tan Wa @Greenbeard @Bullet @Dark Admiral @Cichy
@Xione read this now!!!
 
Long read but I’m extremely proud of this one lol.

Alright bois. I figured since I’ve never done a full post on this, I should now explain all the reasons I believe that Shibashou will be an end-of-series vassal to Ousen. I actually first posted this theory years back, and as soon as it was revealed that Shibashou and Ousen would directly battle in Hango, the theory gained a lot more traction in my mind. So some historical spoilers but please enjoy:

I will color explicit historical spoilers red so you guys know exactly when I’m spoiling and when I’m speculating.

1. The first thing to note about Shibashou is that historically, Shibashou is not killed or defeated at all in Zhao, he is simply dismissed from service. Historically we know that Shibashou was Riboku’s deputy in the final days of Zhao, and that he was ultimately dismissed when Riboku was [omitted for big spoilers], and literally nothing else. More on that later.

Now I am reminded of another character similar to Shibashou in Renpa who I think is being handled by Hara similarly to how Shibashou will be handled. Historically, after Renpa fled from Zhao, he never fought any more battles. He lived in Wei for a time, then he lived in Chu, then he died peacefully of old age in his sleep.

This is far from the Renpa Hara has written who actively fought for Wei and still fights for Chu and claims that he will die on the battlefield cough cough EOS Shin cough cough. Sorry, don’t know what came over me there. Anyway, with Renpa, Hara decided it was far more interesting to have Renpa remain an active battlefield commander after his defection from Zhao, and so he continues to write Renpa as an active battlefield commander.

So the precedent is already set for Hara to do something similar for a character who historically does not die in Zhao. This brings us to our next point:

2.The discrepancy between historical Shibashou and manga Shibashou.

Historcially Shibashou is almost the definition of a completely irrelevant commander. I have researched Sima Shang tirelessly and let me tell you, what I’ve posted on Shibashou is literally all I can find. This was certainly no general on par with your historical Renpa’s or Chousha’s or Rinshoujou’s, but manga Shibashou is the second most lengthily hyped general in the history of this manga behind Kou En himself.

So what gives? Why did Hara take such a relatively irrelevant general historically, and choose to make him the template for the enormously hyped Shibashou? Well, you could argue that Shibashou is simply meant to be an overwhelming opponent during the final days of Zhao’s life, but I suspect it’s more than that.

Hara’s Renpa was too great to simply die of old age in Chu, and I’ve long suspected that Hara plans more for his Shibashou than for him to simply ride off into the sunset and die in Seika without ever impacting the manga again after Zhao’s fall. Shibashou is a relatively young man, he could easily live another 30-40 years naturally before dying of old age, and if Shibashou were to continue to be an actively fighting commander in some capacity in that aspect, then by EOS he would be an older, more hardened warrior similar in age to current Bananji, ripe in experience and fully ready to be picked up by some sort of mega-commander at EOS. Which is a good Segway into our next point:

3. Ousen’s propensity for trying to recruit powerful commanders.

There has to be a term for this manga trope, but for now I’ll just call them the recruiter. Let’s define the recruiter as the type of manga character who is always trying to recruit powerful subordinates regardless of where their loyalties might lie. The most obvious example of this in other manga is Blackbeard from One Piece.

Blackbeard asks Ace to join his crew despite Ace hating him, and then Blackbeard asked Luffy to join his crew despite Luffy also hating him. Blackbeard was the exact type of mofo pretimeskip who simply wanted powerful subordinates under his wing that he could use for his own means, and he didn’t particularly care where he got them from.

At first Blackbeard’s attempts at recruiting people ended in hilarious failure, but eventually Oda rewarded Blackbeard with shockingly powerful subordinates like Shiryuu and Aokiji. The mangaka must eventually reward the recruiter’s propensity for recruiting with incredibly powerful subordinates of his own.

Now let’s look at Ousen. Ousen tried to recruit Kyou En which failed hilariously, then he tried to recruit Mouten which failed hilariously, then he tried to recruit f***ing Riboku himself which also of course ended hilariously.

Ousen is currently in the “hilariously failing” stage of his recruiting journey, which should naturally precede the phase where Ousen starts to gain subordinates who almost seem too powerful to actually serve him. With Blackbeard, this was Shiryu and Aokiji. With Ousen…well, who could possibly join him?

Shibashou is far from the only candidate who could potentially join up with EOS Ousen, but again look at everything we know about Shibashou so far: a seemingly irrelevant historical commander, perhaps no different from the likes of historical Enkan or Kotsuminhaku, who Hara took and made a Great Heaven level commander and has stressed the enormous power he possesses for five goddamn years, longer than any other commander in Kingdom but Kou En. A commander who does not die in Zhao, but lives on for potentially the next few decades.

I would argue that Ousen recruiting hugely powerful subordinates isn’t speculation but is almost guaranteed to happen in the future, the only question remaining is the question of who will join him. This brings us to our next point:

4. Shibashou’s loyalties.

So we have to ask ourselves, why would Shibashou even consider joining up with Ousen? And what might restrict him from joining up with Ousen? At first glance, it might appear that Shibashou cares only for Seika and nothing else but I would argue this is somewhat of a red herring. We can also gleam other aspects of Shibashou’s personality based on the details Hara has given us:

-Shibashou hates the Zhao court, probably for their incompetence, corruption, cruelty, and lack of empathy for anyone other than themselves.
-Shibashou also seems to heavily respect Riboku, undoubtedly for Riboku’s own knowledge and prowess at war.

So Shibashou hates incompetence, corruption, decadence, etc…and he really respects commanders who warrant respect through their actions and merit. There is one other thing Shibashou hates strongly enough to actually take his big gorilla ass from Seika and fight:

-Qin. Undoubtedly for their invading, innocent slaughtering, and war mongering tendencies.

So Shibashou holds no loyalty to any state in particular, only to his beloved Seika, and hates Qin enough to literally leave Seika to kill them.

So in order for Shibashou to consider joining up with someone like Ousen, Ousen would need to be someone who opposes a force like Qin. Now for those of you who actually know the trajectory Ei Sei’s story will take in the future, some giant fucking alarms should be ringing off in your mind right now about why someone like Shibashou would continue to wish to oppose Qin in the future, but I’m actually not going to spoil anything about Sei or Qin in the future. For now, let’s just continue to discuss things we know:

5. Ousen’s own loyalties

It should be clear by this point that Ousen holds no particular loyalty to Qin so I won’t discuss that in depth. What I will say is that Ousen and Shibashou already seem to ideologically agree about both Qin and Zhao:



This cannot be far from what Shibashou believes about states like Qin and Zhao. I’ve always seen Ousen as someone who wants to unify China before claiming the unified Kingdom for himself. If you’re Ousen, why start your own Kingdom from scratch and then have 7 other super Kingdoms to deal with, when instead you could high jack one of those super kingdoms and use it to eliminate the rest of them?

For Shibashou to even consider Ousen, Shibashou would need to first believe that Ousen is ideologically opposed to Qin and her war mongering tendencies…which Ousen absolutely seems to be, he is simply using Qin to ripen China for his own eventual rule. That’s the plan, anyway.

6. Ousen vs Shibashou at Hango

And now we reach Hango, where Shibashou and Ousen are currently on a crash course for one another. I think Hara will use this current battle to simply introduce each man to the other. Ousen will identify Shibashou as an enormous powerhouse, undoubtedly someone he’ll want in his own service, and Shibashou will identify Ousen as an intellect on a similar level to Riboku
himself, someone Shibashou already respects. I doubt Ousen will come within speaking proximity of Shibashou at Hango because Ousen probably won’t want none of that, but this battle will at least familiarize Shibashou and Ousen with each other the way battles familiarize enemy generals and will put Shibashou and Ousen on “speaking terms” for later when Ousen can approach Shibashou first through messages and diplomats rather than face to face meetings, eventually wearing Shibashou down into his service.

All Ousen would really need to do is slowly but surely convince Shibashou that he is actually an enemy of the evil Qin and that only by joining forces under a competent King (Ousen) can the two of them hope to succeed where Riboku and Shibashou failed. And on that subject:

7. Paralleling Ousen and Riboku

This is a more brief point but Ousen and Riboku are two characters who Hara has paralleled with each other on many occasions, and having both characters essentially have to work to obtain Shibashou as a vassal would be an extension of that Parrallel.

EDIT: It just keeps coming!


………

And that about does it for now. Obviously the Ousen as the final villain that @God Buggy just posted bleeds into this theory a bit and I think it works extremely well.

What do you guys think?

@Owl Ki @TheKnightOfTheSea @MarineHQ @God Buggy @Blackbeard @SakazOuki @FutureWarrior123 @Rumble @Shanks @Extravlad @Xione @RayanOO @Yo Tan Wa @Greenbeard @Bullet @Dark Admiral @Cichy
Lord have mercy, W dedication. I think it is a very plausible theory tbh.


Though how much I want it to happen, not sure sort of split. I think it would be good for the Shin vs Ousen matchup with SBS providing a counter to Shin having Kyoukai. So in that aspect I think it'd be cool and give Ousen some credibility, since i'm sorry to say but having a dude like Akou as your best commander is pretty-mid when comparing Ousen to Riboku/Ouki/Renpa/etc who had/have monsters under them. So it would for sure put Ousen up there with them and boost credibility as a general (since assembling a formidable army is part of a general's job).

But on the other hand I'm like it'd be cool to have Shibashou be loyal to Riboku and die trying to avenge him rather than join the enemy that ransacked through Zhao and killed his people.

Because thing is Shibashou doesn't hold loyalty to the Zhao monarchy, but he does hold loyalty to the nation of Zhao. That's a crucial difference imo. It's the samething that Bananji has going for him and others who are aligned with Riboku. Even though Bananji and SSJ spent their lives in Ganmon/Xiongnu regions, they are defending Zhao itself to their deaths. They could careless about the Zhao monarchy, but they do care about the Zhao as a nation/country with hundreds of years of history. Same mentality as some irl soldiers who don't give a fuck about the government parties and have 0 loyalty to them, but more than willing to throw away their lives for the protection of the nation itself. Which is why the 1st appearance of Shibashou is when Zhao is invaded, and he essentially takes it upon himself to make sure Zhao doesn't get pincered by the Qin & Yan, by putting Yan in a check.

Zhao as a country is right now in the series: 243 years old
Comparatively the USA is: 245 years

As RiShi pointed out they have their own cultures, monetary systems, so on and so forth. Naturally, the likes of Bananji/Shibashou/CGR/Gyou'un/KoChou who don't hold any loyalty to the Zhao monarchy, still hold loyalty to the nation itself. Hell even Renpa, once he heard the news was impacted by it and wanted to go fight for the Zhao for revenge since he has loyalties to the nation itself.


Though we often talk about Ousen having anti-Qin agendas, the reality at the end of the day is Ousen is the one responsible for helping Qin gain so much land and slaughter hundreds and thousands of people. And in this war it'll be Ousen who'd be responsible for slaughtering some of the people of Seika. When you look at it from that perspective, it would be a slightly bitter pill to swallow for SBS to join Ousen, unless of course Ousen pulls an "Its all part of the plan, just look at the end goal" and lets him in on his grand plan or w.e But he didn't even do that with Riboku so hard to say.
 
So I wen't back to reread sources on the battle of Hango.

From what we know.

1. Riboku is credited for defeating Qin army at Hango.
2. Despite this Qin captures Hango castle.
3. In the same year there's another battle in the southern Zhao and once again Riboku is credited for defeating Qin army.

So assuming Hara will stick to this I have a theory on what's going to happen in the manga. Zhao will win the battle of Hango, but it will be revealed that Ousen had a plan B in Tou invading Zhao from the south. So Riboku is forced to abandon Hango and move his army to fend off Tou's southern attack. Qin technically achieves their goal, but their loses are too big to progress their invasion any further.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Bro fucking self-banned again before I had a chance to respond to him


Well I’ll leave this here for in 6 months when he returns for 48 hours lol.

But on the other hand I'm like it'd be cool to have Shibashou be loyal to Riboku and die trying to avenge him rather than join the enemy that ransacked through Zhao and killed his people.
On the subject of Shibashou trying to avenge Riboku:

…Why lol? Shibashou ain’t that loyal to Riboku…not even close I’d say. Loyal enough to respect and shelter him from the buffoons in Kantan, and loyal enough to follow his lead, but not so loyal that Shibashou would die avenging him…Shibashou would far sooner die defending Seika than he would die avenging Riboku.

Because thing is Shibashou doesn't hold loyalty to the Zhao monarchy, but he does hold loyalty to the nation of Zhao.
Does he? I don’t think he does at all. There’s never been a moment where Shibashou’s loyalty to Zhao has even been remotely implied. He is loyal to Seika, and will defend Zhao insofar as it keeps Seika safe but Zhao itself? No. And to that point:

Which is why the 1st appearance of Shibashou is when Zhao is invaded, and he essentially takes it upon himself to make sure Zhao doesn't get pincered by the Qin & Yan, by putting Yan in a check.
Shibashou attacked Ordo because Ordo was on his way to Seika. This had nothing to do with Zhao. Lol

And in this war it'll be Ousen who'd be responsible for slaughtering some of the people of Seika. When you look at it from that perspective, it would be a slightly bitter pill to swallow for SBS to join Ousen, unless of course Ousen pulls an "Its all part of the plan, just look at the end goal" and lets him in on his grand plan or w.e But he didn't even do that with Riboku so hard to say.
I doubt Ousen or anyone from Qin will attack Seika at all before Zhao’s fall. It seems like a pretty insignificant city to attack, especially when you consider it is defended by an army of animals. Once Qin falls Kantan and Gi’An, Zhao is done and there will be no need to attack any other cities of theirs.

So I wen't back to reread sources on the battle of Hango.

From what we know.

1. Riboku is credited for defeating Qin army at Hango.
2. Despite this Qin captures Hango castle.
3. In the same year there's another battle in the southern Zhao and once again Riboku is credited for defeating Qin army.

So assuming Hara will stick to this I have a theory on what's going to happen in the manga. Zhao will win the battle of Hango, but it will be revealed that Ousen had a plan B in Tou invading Zhao from the south. So Riboku is forced to abandon Hango and move his army to fend off Tou's southern attack. Qin technically achieves their goal, but their loses are too big to progress their invasion any further.
Interesting, I didn’t know about the second Zhao battle this year..is this the battle of Roumou?

If this is the case, we may get that Tou vs Riboku and Shibashou matchup I was talking about a few months back. Lol
 
Bro fucking self-banned again before I had a chance to respond to him


Well I’ll leave this here for in 6 months when he returns for 48 hours lol.



On the subject of Shibashou trying to avenge Riboku:

…Why lol? Shibashou ain’t that loyal to Riboku…not even close I’d say. Loyal enough to respect and shelter him from the buffoons in Kantan, and loyal enough to follow his lead, but not so loyal that Shibashou would die avenging him…Shibashou would far sooner die defending Seika than he would die avenging Riboku.



Does he? I don’t think he does at all. There’s never been a moment where Shibashou’s loyalty to Zhao has even been remotely implied. He is loyal to Seika, and will defend Zhao insofar as it keeps Seika safe but Zhao itself? No. And to that point:



Shibashou attacked Ordo because Ordo was on his way to Seika. This had nothing to do with Zhao. Lol



I doubt Ousen or anyone from Qin will attack Seika at all before Zhao’s fall. It seems like a pretty insignificant city to attack, especially when you consider it is defended by an army of animals. Once Qin falls Kantan and Gi’An, Zhao is done and there will be no need to attack any other cities of theirs.



Interesting, I didn’t know about the second Zhao battle this year..is this the battle of Roumou?

If this is the case, we may get that Tou vs Riboku and Shibashou matchup I was talking about a few months back. Lol
So in the end Goatboku does fight every single Qin 6 member lmao
 
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