Fanclub Islam Group

Zara · Nov 5, 2020

Only been 12 hours and already 8 pages. :myman:

Xione · Nov 5, 2020

Amen, nearly all religions have something positive that one can learn from. Which is what people should focus on.

AL sama · Nov 5, 2020

1. Qur'an itself is not the proof. It's credibility as being the true source of Islam itself is questionable, as Muhammad didn't himself sit down and write it. Rather it's compiled together after the Prophet's death. It's the same issue that exists with Christians & their Bible. It's the same issue that exists with Buddhism. The only religions who bypass this issue out of the World's Major religions would be Sikhi & Hinduism, with the Vedas written by the ancient vedic people and the Granth being written by the teachers of Sikhi themselves. (Now this doesn't mean these two religions are more credible or w.e than Islam, but simply their scriptures have more credibility when pertaining to being a true source for their religion).

2. Hadiths themselves are a controversial issue, and not always in full-agreement with the Qur'an. Their very existence again makes the Qur'an less credible as being the source of Islam. Because if Qur'an is the word of God, there is no reason for a secondary text. Now this issue exists in other religions like Sikhi as well, where there are secondary texts that are considered of near same importance as the main text, despite there being contradictory points.

3. Sunnah, same issue as Hadiths. No written by Muhammad, but hearsay on what Muhammad potentially could've said.

"Predictions of the prophets".. the prediction arguments are really bad. Nearly every religions claims their founders made predictions which are now coming true. You have the Christians with the twin towers, and so on. Most of these predictions are simply based on people's interpretation of the texts or sayings.

Furthermore, Islam in northern India was in such a bad condition because Muslims while claiming to be Muslims, didn't actually follow the saying, and those who did followed the wrong ones. Which is why in that specific region the founders of Sikhism (a controversial religion itself), Guru Nanak, started to comment on what a true Muslim should be:

1st. Because Muslims in power at that time were committing horrendous acts, he made the following comments on what a Muslim should be, because Muslims called themselves Muslims, but they really weren't Muslims (which is the same issue in the modern world):

"There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood."

"It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim."

2nd. The acts committed by Muslims of the late 1400s under Babur who invaded Northern india at time, genociding Hindus and even other muslims in the name of Islam. Led Nanak to write this:

"Since Babar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. || 5 || The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well. Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads? They never remembered their Lord as Raam, and now they cannot even chant Khudaa-i || 6 || Some have returned to their homes, and meeting their relatives, they ask about their safety. For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain. Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the fate of mankind? || 7 || 11 ||"

Even in the late 1300s, Islam's "heads" had reached high level of corruption and thus a poet of that time wrote this:

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. "

Genocides, rapes, destruction of villages & cities has happened under the name of "Muslim" & "Islam". Throughout history Muslims & Islam in various regions has been criticized. The reason it couldn't in the middle east is because of the Kingdom's at various times practiced a hardcore militarism when it came to implementing Islam in the culture of the religion.

Now you might be saying why I'm giving you this short history lesson and it's relevance to your post on "proof". Well the reason it's mentioned is because you said Islam is a religion of proof. So when did this "proof" show up?? Because it certainly did not exist in those eras, where heinous acts were being committed under the name of Islam, where scriptures such as the Quran itself was used to justify those heinous acts. The ones who committed such acts also had high-level scholars under them who knew the language of the Quran much better than any modern individual today, as well had more information on the era and the situation the religion was formed in.

So no my friend you do not have any "proof", what you have is simply your perception of having "proof". People follow buddhism due to it's ideologies. People follow Hinduism due to semi-practicalities of the vedic people who combined science/religion. People follow Judaism & Christianity for some of the good things/morals that exist in them. People follow Sikhism for the samething as the rest. The reason people follow other religions goes beyond just "belief". People claim their religion tells the right way with "proof", but really none do. Yes nearly all religions have some aspects and teachings that are universal and based in reality. Like Buddhism's meditation ways which do help the physical body and mind. The stories of the bible that can be used to teach people some basic "morals".

As for why people follow Islam. Islam was forced upon millions of people across Middle East & Asia throughout it's history. No different than Christianity in Europe and Americas. No different than Hinduism in India. Thanks to the various empires/kingdoms that adopted those religions. Now a lot of people are well engrossed into those religions due to their cultures/families/being raised that way, that people now spread them to others. Then of course there is religious propaganda where people use wrong information regarding other religions to make theirs look better ( Dr. Naik is well famous for that for Islam).

blame the people who did those deeds

Xione · Nov 5, 2020

AL sama said:

Well yes that's the basic principle, as even pointed out in the verses of what I quoted. Because if one is a "true muslim", he or she wouldn't support such heinous acts that happened under the name of Islam with using verse of the Qur'an and hadiths as the justification for them, let alone actually commit them.

The point was if Islam is a religion of proof, unlike others. Then it should be clear as days as to what it stands for and what it doesn't. But because it's just like any other religion, where one's interpretation can lead one to believe in something from the same verse that others might believe differently. Tons of people refer to the Qur'an & Hadiths and etc to claim Islam is a religion of peace and love that doesn't believe in converting others into it, and accepts other religions. While on the other hand some believe the opposite. Some using that same scripture believe in forceful spreading of the religion, while saying the prophet/god condemns all other beliefs.

This is an issue with nearly all major religions, even Buddhism. Only reason I've focus on Islam is because Chrono's post was making it seem if Islam stood on some higher-pedestal compared to others when it comes to "proof", when in reality it's no different than any other major religion. More people have been slaughtered under the name of Islam, other than possibly Christianity , (note that I'm saying under the name of, not that the religion itself is the one doing the killing).

Kaido D. Stronger · Nov 5, 2020

Bullet said:

Thanks! :cheers: :lumazed:

comrade · Nov 5, 2020

According to the Quran, Allah first created the earth, then looked up to the sky to create the rest of the universe; sun, moon and stars. While he placed the stars in the nearest heaven, beneath sun and moon. And it took him twice as long to create the earth as compared to the rest of the universe.

Intellectually honest muslims would acknowledge that religion as man made based on this fact alone.

:catsure:

Zara · Nov 5, 2020

comrade said:

According to the Quran, Allah first created the earth, then looked up to the sky to create the rest of the universe; sun, moon and stars. While he placed the stars in the nearest heaven, beneath sun and moon. And it took him twice as long to create the earth as compared to the rest of the universe.

Intellectually honest muslims would acknowledge that religion as man made based on this fact alone.

:catsure:

Sounds like Allah is a top tier, what’s the issue?

comrade · Nov 5, 2020

Zara said:

Can't argue against it

AL sama · Nov 5, 2020

comrade said:

are you saying that physics doesn't support that?

comrade · Nov 5, 2020

AL sama said:

No. I agree Allah ist top tier

nik87 · Nov 5, 2020

Koinboin said:

See? That's the interesting part about it, Deedat acts as if he knows something he cannot possibly know.
It is fine to believe in whatever we choose to believe but just because we believe into some story, it doesnt make it true...

Also, the atheist is expecting nothing, if there is afterlife, he would probably be like: Awesome! while a believer is kinda setting himself for disappointment, expecting a lot and possibly ending up with nothing but if afterlife doesnt exist he wont be able to feel disappointment.

Chrono · Nov 5, 2020

Xione said:

1. Qur'an itself is not the proof. It's credibility as being the true source of Islam itself is questionable, as Muhammad didn't himself sit down and write it. Rather it's compiled together after the Prophet's death. It's the same issue that exists with Christians & their Bible. It's the same issue that exists with Buddhism. The only religions who bypass this issue out of the World's Major religions would be Sikhi & Hinduism, with the Vedas written by the ancient vedic people and the Granth being written by the teachers of Sikhi themselves. (Now this doesn't mean these two religions are more credible or w.e than Islam, but simply their scriptures have more credibility when pertaining to being a true source for their religion).

2. Hadiths themselves are a controversial issue, and not always in full-agreement with the Qur'an. Their very existence again makes the Qur'an less credible as being the source of Islam. Because if Qur'an is the word of God, there is no reason for a secondary text. Now this issue exists in other religions like Sikhi as well, where there are secondary texts that are considered of near same importance as the main text, despite there being contradictory points.

3. Sunnah, same issue as Hadiths. No written by Muhammad, but hearsay on what Muhammad potentially could've said.

"Predictions of the prophets".. the prediction arguments are really bad. Nearly every religions claims their founders made predictions which are now coming true. You have the Christians with the twin towers, and so on. Most of these predictions are simply based on people's interpretation of the texts or sayings.

Furthermore, Islam in northern India was in such a bad condition because Muslims while claiming to be Muslims, didn't actually follow the saying, and those who did followed the wrong ones. Which is why in that specific region the founders of Sikhism (a controversial religion itself), Guru Nanak, started to comment on what a true Muslim should be:

1st. Because Muslims in power at that time were committing horrendous acts, he made the following comments on what a Muslim should be, because Muslims called themselves Muslims, but they really weren't Muslims (which is the same issue in the modern world):

"There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood."

"It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim."

2nd. The acts committed by Muslims of the late 1400s under Babur who invaded Northern india at time, genociding Hindus and even other muslims in the name of Islam. Led Nanak to write this:

"Since Babar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. || 5 || The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well. Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads? They never remembered their Lord as Raam, and now they cannot even chant Khudaa-i || 6 || Some have returned to their homes, and meeting their relatives, they ask about their safety. For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain. Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the fate of mankind? || 7 || 11 ||"

Even in the late 1300s, Islam's "heads" had reached high level of corruption and thus a poet of that time wrote this:

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. "

Genocides, rapes, destruction of villages & cities has happened under the name of "Muslim" & "Islam". Throughout history Muslims & Islam in various regions has been criticized. The reason it couldn't in the middle east is because of the Kingdom's at various times practiced a hardcore militarism when it came to implementing Islam in the culture of the religion.

Now you might be saying why I'm giving you this short history lesson and it's relevance to your post on "proof". Well the reason it's mentioned is because you said Islam is a religion of proof. So when did this "proof" show up?? Because it certainly did not exist in those eras, where heinous acts were being committed under the name of Islam, where scriptures such as the Quran itself was used to justify those heinous acts. The ones who committed such acts also had high-level scholars under them who knew the language of the Quran much better than any modern individual today, as well had more information on the era and the situation the religion was formed in.

So no my friend you do not have any "proof", what you have is simply your perception of having "proof". People follow buddhism due to it's ideologies. People follow Hinduism due to semi-practicalities of the vedic people who combined science/religion. People follow Judaism & Christianity for some of the good things/morals that exist in them. People follow Sikhism for the samething as the rest. The reason people follow other religions goes beyond just "belief". People claim their religion tells the right way with "proof", but really none do. Yes nearly all religions have some aspects and teachings that are universal and based in reality. Like Buddhism's meditation ways which do help the physical body and mind. The stories of the bible that can be used to teach people some basic "morals".

As for why people follow Islam. Islam was forced upon millions of people across Middle East & Asia throughout it's history. No different than Christianity in Europe and Americas. No different than Hinduism in India. Thanks to the various empires/kingdoms that adopted those religions. Now a lot of people are well engrossed into those religions due to their cultures/families/being raised that way, that people now spread them to others. Then of course there is religious propaganda where people use wrong information regarding other religions to make theirs look better ( Dr. Naik is well famous for that for Islam).

1.) The Quran came down whilst he was alive. It literally addresses him. It was put togethet after his death. But all those chapters came when he was alive. The greatest miracle is that Muhammad is an illeterate thats why its impossible for him to say such things. Yet he was revealed such amazing chapters when it came relevant.

2.) There are different grades of hadith. All sahih ( authentic ) hadiths dont contradict the Quran. Some other hadiths may, but that just shows theyre invalid. Quran > Hadith always. If a certain Hadith contradicts the Quran....then that Hadith is wrong. Hadith at the end of the day are humans narrations anyways.

3.) Yes and dependant on the grade of the Hadith and whether it contradicts the Quran. The Quran is mentions numreous times to follow the Prophet Muhammad's( PBUH) way. His is the best way to follow.

4.) Idk what your on about...The Prophet madr these predcations.

Theyre undeniable....but of course you can deny them.

So your argument for their being no proof of Islam is due to it being forced on people ? You also agree that people follow other religions because of how they make the feel and whether they agree with their ideaolgies. I agree with that.

However like I said....their is proof for Islam. Your attempt to ivalidate the Quran with Hadiths will neve work.....since Quran is always superior to hadiths.

AL sama · Nov 5, 2020

if you guys wanna debate these things than I'll close this thread

Chrono · Nov 5, 2020

comrade said:

I mean where you there when the Earth was created :choppawhat:

Post automatically merged: Nov 5, 2020

AL sama said:

I dont want to. Can you delete comments like those.

Rosella.Fiamingo · Nov 5, 2020

I'm not a muslim but good thread to have as long as it is civil.

I'm Christian but, I question everything even if not vocally. I would urge everyone following anything to thoroughly question that belief even if doing so is painful and will bring you anguish. The issue I have with my mother when my siblings and I bring up religious debates is that she refuses to listen to anything and just shuts down her mind and refuses to entertain questions.

The game theory chart @Chrono posted is pretty solid though atheists would question the strength of one's beliefs if they view something so fundamental to who they are in terms of game theory. (Why are you considering a scenario where your belief is wrong and ending up with a neutral result.

Ultimately, I enjoy religious debates especially between the fated and atheists but, it's hard to come to full conclusions.

All I believe can be summed up in this quote from John Gardners Grendel

nik87 · Nov 5, 2020

AL sama said:

Make a separate Religion thread where stuff can be debated. Thanks. :catsweat:

Chrono · Nov 5, 2020

nik87 said:

Yh that would be better.....

Post automatically merged: Nov 5, 2020

Rosella.Fiamingo said:

Ive been questioning my belief a lot. But at the end of the day....all my questions are answered. And I can see all the proofs.

I dont wanna brag or anything, but everything Ive also prayed for to Allah....no matter how impossible for me. Has come true. Though I dont think I should talk about it.

Thus how could I leave my Lord after he's given me such things. Id be like the Hypocrites that were mentioned in the Quran.

On the whole Religion vs Atheiest. Everything will become clear after death I guess.

Luffy bin Dragon · Nov 5, 2020

Xione said:

1. Qur'an itself is not the proof. It's credibility as being the true source of Islam itself is questionable, as Muhammad didn't himself sit down and write it. Rather it's compiled together after the Prophet's death. It's the same issue that exists with Christians & their Bible. It's the same issue that exists with Buddhism. The only religions who bypass this issue out of the World's Major religions would be Sikhi & Hinduism, with the Vedas written by the ancient vedic people and the Granth being written by the teachers of Sikhi themselves. (Now this doesn't mean these two religions are more credible or w.e than Islam, but simply their scriptures have more credibility when pertaining to being a true source for their religion).

2. Hadiths themselves are a controversial issue, and not always in full-agreement with the Qur'an. Their very existence again makes the Qur'an less credible as being the source of Islam. Because if Qur'an is the word of God, there is no reason for a secondary text. Now this issue exists in other religions like Sikhi as well, where there are secondary texts that are considered of near same importance as the main text, despite there being contradictory points.

3. Sunnah, same issue as Hadiths. No written by Muhammad, but hearsay on what Muhammad potentially could've said.

"Predictions of the prophets".. the prediction arguments are really bad. Nearly every religions claims their founders made predictions which are now coming true. You have the Christians with the twin towers, and so on. Most of these predictions are simply based on people's interpretation of the texts or sayings.

Furthermore, Islam in northern India was in such a bad condition because Muslims while claiming to be Muslims, didn't actually follow the saying, and those who did followed the wrong ones. Which is why in that specific region the founders of Sikhism (a controversial religion itself), Guru Nanak, started to comment on what a true Muslim should be:

1st. Because Muslims in power at that time were committing horrendous acts, he made the following comments on what a Muslim should be, because Muslims called themselves Muslims, but they really weren't Muslims (which is the same issue in the modern world):

"There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood."

"It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim."

2nd. The acts committed by Muslims of the late 1400s under Babur who invaded Northern india at time, genociding Hindus and even other muslims in the name of Islam. Led Nanak to write this:

"Since Babar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. || 5 || The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well. Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads? They never remembered their Lord as Raam, and now they cannot even chant Khudaa-i || 6 || Some have returned to their homes, and meeting their relatives, they ask about their safety. For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain. Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the fate of mankind? || 7 || 11 ||"

Even in the late 1300s, Islam's "heads" had reached high level of corruption and thus a poet of that time wrote this:

"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.
You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word?
O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not behold Him by thought or contemplation.
You do not care for others, you are a religious fanatic, and your life is of no account at all.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.
But you gain nothing by reading and studying, O mad-man, if you do not gain the understanding in your heart.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.
The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. "

Genocides, rapes, destruction of villages & cities has happened under the name of "Muslim" & "Islam". Throughout history Muslims & Islam in various regions has been criticized. The reason it couldn't in the middle east is because of the Kingdom's at various times practiced a hardcore militarism when it came to implementing Islam in the culture of the religion.

Now you might be saying why I'm giving you this short history lesson and it's relevance to your post on "proof". Well the reason it's mentioned is because you said Islam is a religion of proof. So when did this "proof" show up?? Because it certainly did not exist in those eras, where heinous acts were being committed under the name of Islam, where scriptures such as the Quran itself was used to justify those heinous acts. The ones who committed such acts also had high-level scholars under them who knew the language of the Quran much better than any modern individual today, as well had more information on the era and the situation the religion was formed in.

So no my friend you do not have any "proof", what you have is simply your perception of having "proof". People follow buddhism due to it's ideologies. People follow Hinduism due to semi-practicalities of the vedic people who combined science/religion. People follow Judaism & Christianity for some of the good things/morals that exist in them. People follow Sikhism for the samething as the rest. The reason people follow other religions goes beyond just "belief". People claim their religion tells the right way with "proof", but really none do. Yes nearly all religions have some aspects and teachings that are universal and based in reality. Like Buddhism's meditation ways which do help the physical body and mind. The stories of the bible that can be used to teach people some basic "morals".

As for why people follow Islam. Islam was forced upon millions of people across Middle East & Asia throughout it's history. No different than Christianity in Europe and Americas. No different than Hinduism in India. Thanks to the various empires/kingdoms that adopted those religions. Now a lot of people are well engrossed into those religions due to their cultures/families/being raised that way, that people now spread them to others. Then of course there is religious propaganda where people use wrong information regarding other religions to make theirs look better ( Dr. Naik is well famous for that for Islam).

The earliest quran compilation was 2 years after the prophets death and yes he did have scribes wrote the Quran

Post automatically merged: Nov 5, 2020

nik87 said:

Well we can’t feel disappointment when we are dead according to the atheist perspective

AL sama · Nov 5, 2020

Chrono said:

from this post 0nwards I'll delete anything that can lead to toxicity

nik87 said:

don't think that's a good idea cause this topic is too sensitive

Chrono · Nov 5, 2020

AL sama said:

Yh thats best. I wanted this to be a thread where we can talk about Islamic matters.

Post automatically merged: Nov 5, 2020

Fanclub Islam Group

More options

Zara

Xione

AL sama

Red Haired

Xione

Kaido D. Stronger

comrade

Zara

comrade

AL sama

Red Haired

comrade

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker

Chrono

AL sama

Red Haired

Chrono

Rosella.Fiamingo

Peerless In History

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker

Chrono

Luffy bin Dragon

AL sama

Red Haired

Chrono