Future Events Baited by Spoilers: Karyuudon vs ZKK

Which of the following do you believe are true?

  • Zoro will kill Kaido

  • Zoro is out of all remaining arc fights for good

  • Zoro has samurai heritage

  • Zoro does not have samurai heritage, but will be appointed as an honorary samurai

  • Zoro is a descendant of Ryuma

  • Zoro is a descendant of Ushimaru

  • King will stay standing for another chapter

  • Kaido was right, the samurai are hopeless


Results are only viewable after voting.

Cinera

𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐌𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐧𝐲 𝐏𝐞𝐭
#21
Hiryu: Kaen (飛竜火焔, Hiryū: Kaen[COLOR=var(--theme-link-color)]?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Japanese, literally meaning "Flying Dragon: Fire Blaze")[/COLOR]: Using one sword wielded in his left hand with his right hand gripping his left wrist for support (or vice-versa), Zoro jumps high up into the air and slashes his opponent. After slashing them, Zoro's opponent then bursts into flames (in the anime, the color of the fire is blue instead) from where they were slashed. This was first seen being used against [COLOR=var(--theme-link-color)]Ryuma[/COLOR].[COLOR=var(--theme-link-color)][5]https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Santoryu/Ittoryu#cite_note-5[/COLOR]The animal or creature that usually accompanies Zoro in the background when performing powerful techniques is an occidental dragon.
You messed up your quote from the wiki. The BBCode is all wrong.


Zoro adopts a specific wrist-clutching stance before executing Hiryu Kaen. Hence it cannot be performed with three swords. I’m not a powerscaler so @Cinera or someone could probably explain better, but where else is Zoro supposed to jump except into the dragon’s mouth if it’s flying straight at him? The hero jumping into the dragon’s mouth is a pretty stock standard image, it’s a real stretch to say that this scene is ‘almost exactly like’ Ryuma’s since the real highlight of the scene is the decapitation anyway.
I mean, there is some visual resemblance between the two scenes. The reason that I insist that it can't be a substitute for Zoro replicating Ryuma's legend is the utter lack of meaning to the scene. Not because it looks far too different from the Ryuma scene.

That said, an important difference is that Zoro split the magma dragon in half, while Ryuma beheaded the flying dragon.


As for whether this is a Santoryu version of Hiryuu Kaen, both contain "Flying Dragon", and the pose is somewhat similar. But I think it's best to think of this as a separate technique (especially due to the quite different new name).

It's also not a ranged attack whereas Hiryuu Kaen was.

@Garp the Fist.
 
#22
I disagree. I don't think Oda is going that route. He specifically had King used Fire dragons to make it look like Zoro slayed a dragon Ryumma style while defeating King.

It's time for Luffy to 1 vs 1 Kaidou now.
Yeah, this. It’s not like King absolutely needed to make a magma dragon, it seems Oda’s very deliberately made that choice to bring about parallels with Ryuma.

As for whether this is a Santoryu version of Hiryuu Kaen, both contain "Flying Dragon", and the pose is somewhat similar. But I think it's best to think of this as a separate technique (especially due to the quite different new name).
I mean, the bit in bold is all I need to know for me to know it’s a Santoryuu version of Hiryuu Kaen
 

Seth

𝐊𝐨𝐤𝐮𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐡𝐮𝐬𝐮𝐢
#24
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts the decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assign ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
@ShadowStyle369
@ShadyOjiro
@SHIHI
@Shiroyru
@ShishioIsBack
@silverfire
@SinOfGreed
@Skiddo
@SmokedOut
@Soleus
@solis
@spawn
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@stormylife
@style
@Sunita
@Sword God Ryuma
@T.D.A
@Tamerani
@Tenshi No Konan
@ten yaksha blother
@Thabeast
@TheKnightOfTheSea
@Tobi
@Topi Jerami
@Trafalgar_D_Law
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@Veljko
@Vonal
@WillOfMyD
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Xione
@yj
@Yo Tan Wa
@yorosenpai
@yunzabit heights
@Zenos7
@ZenZu
@Zoro
@Zoro D Goat
@zorojurou
@ZoroSlaysDragonTuna
@Zowo
That was literally one of the first things I noticed when pics started to roll around:


That would do for the Oden parallel.

You know which parallel comes next right?


 
#25
You messed up your quote from the wiki. The BBCode is all wrong.



I mean, there is some visual resemblance between the two scenes. The reason that I insist that it can't be a substitute for Zoro replicating Ryuma's legend is the utter lack of meaning to the scene. Not because it looks far too different from the Ryuma scene.

That said, an important difference is that Zoro split the magma dragon in half, while Ryuma beheaded the flying dragon.


As for whether this is a Santoryu version of Hiryuu Kaen, both contain "Flying Dragon", and the pose is somewhat similar. But I think it's best to think of this as a separate technique (especially due to the quite different new name).

It's also not a ranged attack whereas Hiryuu Kaen was.

@Garp the Fist.
Adding to that, Zoro has very specific poses for his finishers. For example Oni Giri is this


Other iconic Zoro moves have similar iconic poses. Like Tora Gari:

Shishi sonson


And of course, the most obvious one is Sanzen Sekai.

Yeah, this. It’s not like King absolutely needed to make a magma dragon, it seems Oda’s very deliberately made that choice to bring about parallels with Ryuma.
No, he did. The magma dragon represents his bond with Kaido, which was a key part of the chapter. King showed emotion when Zoro declared that he'd come to knock them off their thrones and we received insight into that emotion, which is his bond of loyalty and gratitude to Kaido. He even calls Kaido with the 'san' honorific despite being rude, condescending and abrasive to everyone else. It also echoes the Captain/RHM yin/yang parallels. Gold and silver, and now (presumably) red fire dragon and azure water themed Uo Uo no Mi dragon.
 
#33
wtf 10 openings got to do with zkk lmao the cope is real
How is it real ?

We are following the same formula we always had with Luffy beating the first strongest, Zoro the second strongest and Sanji the third.
1040 chapters, and Zoro still hasnt killed a named enemy on panel.
If he will kill Kaido why didnt he kill Daz Bones, or Kaku, or whoever ? Oh yeah there is a mr7 who Zoro killed on SbS, that works kek.
The Luffy vs Kaido fight has been hyped for decades and meanwhile Zoro has taken a superpill which will wear off.

The only ones copying are you and your band of zorohomosexuals doubling down when you lack basic reading comprehension.
 
#35
How is it real ?

We are following the same formula we always had with Luffy beating the first strongest, Zoro the second strongest and Sanji the third.
1040 chapters, and Zoro still hasnt killed a named enemy on panel.
If he will kill Kaido why didnt he kill Daz Bones, or Kaku, or whoever ? Oh yeah there is a mr7 who Zoro killed on SbS, that works kek.
The Luffy vs Kaido fight has been hyped for decades and meanwhile Zoro has taken a superpill which will wear off.

The only ones copying are you and your band of zorohomosexuals doubling down when you lack basic reading comprehension.
lmao u say we struggle with basic reading comprehension yet it's very simple the others didn't need to die to fit the narrative lol kaido is the first he won't be stopped unless his head is severed which has been stated multiple times yet u choose to ignore it and think that luffy can punch him and keep this man down permanently we are only stating what's in the story yet u choose to ignore and use basic reading comprehension that zoro also has a role and thats killing kaido cuz kaido will not and can not be stopped permanently without killing him
 
#36
I don't believe in ZKK(only if K is for King) but I do believe Zoro BEATING Kaido.

This chapter Oda confirmed one more time that King > Kaido. Kaido saying Alber is strong he should be called King. Even Kaido acknowledge King as superior to him, that's why he got that name. Kaido for sure was impressed of that kid handling resistances tests better than him.
Post automatically merged:

ZKK was never as alive as ever if anything we got a further confirmation of how astonishing Zoro's AP simply is :zosmug:
Zoro defeated King by distance. Not even touching him. Imagine would he will do with Kaido that is weaker.
 

Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
#38
So 1035 is out and once again, people jumped the gun on the spoilers, believing the provider that said Zoro's finisher looked almost exactly like Ryuma's in Monster. Well, no. That was bait. I'm here to examine some of the dragonslaying material we've received, both in and out of canon and it will become painfully obvious that Zoro vs Karyuudon is not the legend we were promised.

First, let's look at the comparison between Zoro, Ryuuma and Karyuudon.


Zoro and Ryuma very clearly decapitated the dragon, with the emphasis on the head flying away from the body, accompanied by a spray of blood effect.

This is clearly not a decapitation. It's a bisection. Zoro obviously cut the dragon lengthwise.

The spoiler provider also baited the community by stating that Zoro's finisher was a three sword version of Hiryuu Kaen, the attack that Kaido dodged earlier. That... is a massive reach. We don't actually know what Hiryuu Kaen looks like post timeskip, and Hiryuu Kaen is specifically a one-sword technique so a three-sword version of it would be... something else entirely. Not the same technique at all.

Members @Cinera and @KiriNigiri have done a better job of explaining this, so I'll only touch on this matter briefly, but dragons are seen as a symbol of established authority, a la the Celestial Dragons. Zoro is represented by a Tiger, symbolising a young upstart trying to take the throne from the old guard and rebuild the world anew. This idea was rehashed in the chapter here:



We were promised a new dragonslaying legend, with much emphasis placed on replicating Ryuuma's dragonslaying legend from long ago:
One Piece Magazine specifically depicts the decapitation from Punk Hazard. Which makes sense, seeing as that scene was the first homage to Ryuuma. I've already shown how Zoro cutting Karyuudon was not a decapitation, so where is the second Ryuuma homage, in which Zoro beheads an Eastern dragon instead?

For those of you who do not know, or simply enjoy lumping all Zoro fans together as a hive mind, I have been historically conservative with predicting ZKK. In Cinera's thread, I gave it a 60% chance, and I still stand by my rating. I have doubts about Oda having Zoro kill a person on-panel in such a gruesome way, but it's also very hard to refute the mountain of evidence that points to Kaido's death. I don't assign ZKK the highest probability of happening, but I think 1035 is far too premature to dismiss the theory either, particularly since we still have this massive plot point left unresolved:

We need Kaido to acknowledge that there still exists a monster samurai on par with Oden. This is a massive, massive plot point and the culmination of the samurai faction's arc, for Kaido to admit that despite his best efforts to stifle and disarm them, that great samurai will continue to rise. Kaido did not witness Zoro's fight with King and pretty much underestimated him all the way until he unleashed Ashura for the first time. Yet Kaido once again turned his attention away from Zoro, and did not see a link between Zoro and the way of the samurai he claims to love. With the Shimotsuki plotline still hanging, there is still time for Zoro to discover that he is, indeed a samurai by blood and re-challenge Kaido to prove him wrong. If Zoro does not prove him wrong, then Kaido, the villain, would be right in his assessment of the samurai. And we can't have that.

I will leave you with the last panel, where Zoro's finisher is called Jingoku, a word that evokes the samurai. Knowing Oda, this is almost certainly pointing towards Zoro formally acknowledging himself as one of them. Now where to from here? To which character would it be most relevant that Zoro considers himself a samurai? That's for you to decide.


@Afroking
@Aknolagon
@Artorias
@bblue
@Benn beck
@bennbeckman
@BidaPowersTV
@Bittersteel
@Bogard
@Chocolatemuppet
@Buggy D Clown
@Bullet
@Camie
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Chaves
@Cinera
@comrade
@Constantine
@Crooc
@Cross_Marian
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Dark Hound
@Dark Knight Sanji
@DarkWitch
@Dr. Spook
@Dragoban
@Elcadar
@Emperor
@Enma
@Fenaker
@Finalbeta
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung
@Flower
@Fn Lucci
@Foxy Bunny
@Fukki
@Garp the Fist
@Garps tekkai
@Gauntlet
@Gensui Sazid
@Geo
@Gol D. Roger
@Gon’s Missing Arm
@Greenbeard
@Grumpy Zoro
@Guan Yu
@Guymieux
@h_zorothegoat
@HA001
@HAJIKATA
@Hanzo hattori
@Haoku
@HeroesNZ
@Herrera95
@Himura
@I'mTired
@Ice devil slayer
@IceWitch
@Im_not_Osama_bin_laden
@Jack
@Jackteo
@Jew D. Boy
@JioFreed
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@KageyamaShoyo
@Kejon
@KenshiraSonata
@KINGKONGGUN15
@KiriNigiri
@Light D Lamperouge
@Lucas
@Luffy bin Dragon
@Luffy is the mc
@LuffyMazino
@Luslec
@LuthonTheDragDown
@Marco
@Marimo_420
@marimoheado
@MarineHQ62
@MasterD
@matt245
@Midnight Delight
@Mikail
@Monet
@Monkey D Theories
@Monster trio
@MonsterZoro
@Mr. Anderson
@Murilo
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@nik87
@Oblivion
@OmegaPsyche
@Orojackson Refugee
@Parker
@Patryipe
@PerfectHie
@PizzaBread
@playa4321
@princeley
@Punpun
@queen
@RayanOO
@Reborn
@Reddot4
@rednose
@ReggieZoldyck21
@rerere
@Rivaille
@Robin swan
@Roronoa-sama
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Rukusho
@RyumaZoro
@RZ.119
@Sade
@SaintBellkin
@Sakazuki-Singh
@Sakura no Hiluluk
@Salah WG
@Sanji D Cook
@Sentinel
@Seth
@Shadowlord123
@ShadowStyle369
@ShadyOjiro
@SHIHI
@Shiroyru
@ShishioIsBack
@silverfire
@SinOfGreed
@Skiddo
@SmokedOut
@Soleus
@solis
@spawn
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@stormylife
@style
@Sunita
@Sword God Ryuma
@T.D.A
@Tamerani
@Tenshi No Konan
@ten yaksha blother
@Thabeast
@TheKnightOfTheSea
@Tobi
@Topi Jerami
@Trafalgar_D_Law
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@Veljko
@Vonal
@WillOfMyD
@Winsmoke Sanji
@Xione
@yj
@Yo Tan Wa
@yorosenpai
@yunzabit heights
@Zenos7
@ZenZu
@Zoro
@Zoro D Goat
@zorojurou
@ZoroSlaysDragonTuna
@Zowo
:cheers:



There is one more thing - one can take it as foreshadowing or unnecessary fake tension from Oda (I believe it's former)








Add what above two panels says to what you said - Kaido waiting for a samurai and logically one can feel that Zoro Vs Kaido is not over
 
#39
That’s not how Zoro’s techniques work though. Santoryu is not nitoryu, which is not ittoryu. It’s like saying an ittoryu version of Sanzen Sekai or a santoryu version of nigiri toro samon. That would be a different technique altogether.

The wiki specifically describes Hiryu Kaen as this:
Hiryu: Kaen (飛竜火焔, Hiryū: Kaen: Using one sword wielded in his left hand with his right hand gripping his left wrist for support (or vice-versa), Zoro jumps high up into the air and slashes his opponent. After slashing them, Zoro's opponent then bursts into flames (in the anime, the color of the fire is blue instead) from where they were slashed. This was first seen being used against The animal or creature that usually accompanies Zoro in the background when performing powerful techniques is an occidental dragon.

Zoro adopts a specific wrist-clutching stance before executing Hiryu Kaen. Hence it cannot be performed with three swords. I’m not a powerscaler so @Cinera or someone could probably explain better, but where else is Zoro supposed to jump except into the dragon’s mouth if it’s flying straight at him? The hero jumping into the dragon’s mouth is a pretty stock standard image, it’s a real stretch to say that this scene is ‘almost exactly like’ Ryuma’s since the real highlight of the scene is the decapitation anyway.
i'm a powerscaler , this technique is an upgraded version of Ultora gari check both stances
 
#40
i'm a powerscaler , this technique is an upgraded version of Ultora gari check both stances
That was literally one of the first things I noticed when pics started to roll around:


That would do for the Oden parallel.

You know which parallel comes next right?


Tora Gari would make sense as well due to the Tiger vs Dragon theme. The X shaped blood spatter coming off King also points to Tougen Totsuka and that makes sense too, given that Karyuudon appears to be made in Kaido’s image.

Another thing to point out - Zoro decapitated the dragon in Punk Hazard with a one sword technique - Death Lion Song. Ryuma decapitated his dragon with one sword, and Zoro uses one sword for Hiryu Kaen. So logically, the dragon slaying technique should be a one sword technique with sword being Enma.
 
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