Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?


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RayanOO

Hero of Slaves
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On that subject, Gyou’Un > Ren Pa (martially).
for me Renpa is still better than Gyou'un

Renpa weight will still be greater than Gyou'un and in a fight Renpa will def sweat and be hurt but he will ultimately win this.

Ouki explained us the weight and I think that a Great general like Renpa with decades of experience will have more weight than Gyou'un.







Renpa the great general will have more weight. More responsabilities, he carried more lives on his back etc.
 
for me Renpa is still better than Gyou'un

Renpa weight will still be greater than Gyou'un and in a fight Renpa will def sweat and be hurt but he will ultimately win this.

Ouki explained us the weight and I think that a Great general like Renpa with decades of experience will have more weight than Gyou'un.







Renpa the great general will have more weight. More responsabilities, he carried more lives on his back etc.
“Weight” is not factored into character strength though. Houken was consistently cited as the strongest character in the Manga despite having no weight whatsoever.

Shin had more weight than Houken but Houken was clearly stronger, you yourself pointed this out yesterday lol.

Gyou’Un was strictly a martial General while Renpa was a General who also fulfilled the role of grand strategist. In Sanyou for example, Renpa didn’t even start fighting until the very end of the battle. Gyou’Un would’ve been fighting on day 1 since this is the only role he is made for on the battlefield. Gyou’Un’s battlefield role necessitates him being stronger than Renpa, which is consistent with his hype being above Renpa’s and Gyou’Un directly being compared to Gaimou who reached the rank of Great General literally only because he was so colossally strong lol.

Gyou’Un was stronger than Shin who fought pretty evenly with Houken for a time, while Shin was more wounded and tired than Houken was. Let that sink in.
 
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Being considered "the strongest" by majority opinion and actually being "the strongest" are two different things.
I know :seriously:
But when a great general of a state that has fought for decades comes and claims he is the strongest of that state and nobody objects and accepts that as fact you can't bring another general of that said state who is stronger than him
If it was like the case with the fire dragons that he was in jail or hasn't been active or something then okay we can accept it but Man u has been active maybe not a lot but he has fought Kanmei before and is well known by the high ranking generals like Karin
It is not crazy to expect that a land as vast as China, which at this time would have had tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people, could still produce warriors capable of giving Moubu a difficult dual.
I don't have a problem with Moubu getting overpowered or that there might be stronger people than him
If this guy was a mountain warrior, a Yan general or someone from Han i wouldn't have had any problem
Kanmei was said to be the strongest Chu general and now it looks like it was a lie
But if Moubu beats Man u later and we see that Man u is just very close to Kanmei and not stronger i would stop complaing but for now he seems a lot more impressive
Did you guys just think Moubu would go the rest of his life without ever meeting an opponent who could challenge him or something? Like he would never have a meaningful fight against an opponent ever again? Lol
No but i expected it to be someone like Gaimou or Shk not a general from a state that Moubo has already defeated their strongest warrior
And no problem with being challenged by Man U if it just goes to a high or extreme diff but hopefully no powerup or breaking the limit
This should stay true
Moubu = Kanmei > any Chu warrior
 
If it was like the case with the fire dragons that he was in jail or hasn't been active or something then okay we can accept it but Man u has been active maybe not a lot but he has fought Kanmei before and is well known by the high ranking generals like Karin
Hasn’t it been openly stated like 7 times now that nobody has sincerely attempted to capture Juuko for like a long time? Man’U has basically been inactive all this time.

But if Moubu beats Man u later and we see that Man u is just very close to Kanmei and not stronger i would stop complaing but for now he seems a lot more impressive
I don’t see anything that warrants us believing Man’U > Kanmei yet lol. No clue why you guys have jumped the gun this hard.
 
Renpa = Ouki > Houken
Gyou'Un didn't recieve portrayal better than Houken at the shukai plains
Houken was openly stated to have grown stronger than he was at Bayou. He basically mid diffed Duke Hyou who Ouki openly stated was close in strength to him lol. Houken was clearly above Ouki at Shukai Plains.

Gyou’Un was probably roughly = to Ouki overall. Extreme diff either way.
 
I don’t see anything that warrants us believing Man’U > Kanmei yet lol. No clue why you guys have jumped the gun this hard.
He did better than Kanmei in his first clash with Moubu but we should wait more i guess
Hasn’t it been openly stated like 7 times now that nobody has sincerely attempted to capture Juuko for like a long time? Man’U has basically been inactive all this time.
But it was also stated it was only like that because they crushed any army that attempted to attack them so they have fought other states in the past and shown their strength they aren't like Shibashou who probably has never fought before
They have also fought the state of Chu many times including Kanmei's army as their strategist said
So their strength shouldn't be unknown atleast in Chu
and Kanemi claims he is the strongest
So Kanmei > Man'U should stay true
 
He did better than Kanmei in his first clash with Moubu but we should wait more i guess
He did not. Like @Owl Ki said, Kanmei sent Moubu and his horse flying off of the ground. Man’U hasn’t displayed Kanmei’s level of strength yet.

But it was also stated it was only like that because they crushed any army that attempted to attack them so they have fought other states in the past and shown their strength they aren't like Shibashou who probably has never fought before
1. The reason that Man’U hasn’t been challenged is irrelevant. The fact is that he hasn’t been challenged. So already we know that his strength is only vaguely known by the rest of China. Because no one has dared to challenge him and the Juuko Army, while Kanmei has been sent on offensives repeatedly by Kou En.
2. Shibashou is a Great Heavens candidate lol. I can guarantee he has fought many battles before.

Y’all need to understand that there is a difference between common knowledge in the Kingdom World, and stuff that we know as the audience lol.

They have also fought the state of Chu many times including Kanmei's army as their strategist said
So their strength shouldn't be unknown atleast in Chu
and Kanemi claims he is the strongest
So Kanmei > Man'U should stay true
Their strength is not unknown in Chu. Karin called them “Battle Maniacs” and says that Juuko will never fall even if she wouldn’t have sent Yoku and Rei.

Why do you think they are unknowns in Chu? Because Man’U isn’t a Great General? Why would the Chu promote these guys to GG when Juuko Ou outright confirms that they have no loyalty to Chu and the Chu have sent armies to fight them before?
 
Houken was openly stated to have grown stronger than he was at Bayou. He basically mid diffed Duke Hyou who Ouki openly stated was close in strength to him lol. Houken was clearly above Ouki at Shukai Plains.
Yeah Houken got stronger but probably not by much
He got whooped by Ouki
Came back 17 years later and got whooped again so my assumption is that he doesn't have the best growth rate in the series :kayneshrug:
He probably went from a very high - extreme diff for Ouki to maybe extreme diff him but not more than that
And Ouki said Duke would give him a run for his money and a high mid diff fight i assume would qualify for that statement
It would be like a Tou vs Rin bun kun
Gyou’Un was probably roughly = to Ouki overall. Extreme diff either way.
I don't think we have any thing to compare the 2 directly so i use Gaimou who has been compared to Gyu'Un by shin and because he is someone that Shin has to fight later on, is a great general and has no other asset than physical power i would give him the edge over Gyu'Un
And Ouki didn't consider Gaimou worthy because of his lack of weight or whatever
So Ouki > Gaimou > Gyu'un should be fare
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Their strength is not unknown in Chu. Karin called them “Battle Maniacs” and says that Juuko will never fall even if she wouldn’t have sent Yoku and Rei.

Why do you think they are unknowns in Chu? Because Man’U isn’t a Great General? Why would the Chu promote these guys to GG when Juuko Ou outright confirms that they have no loyalty to Chu and the Chu have sent armies to fight them before?
I think you missunderstood
I said they aren't unknown in Chu since they have fought them before
Karin knows their strength
Kanmei has fought them
and Kanmei thinks he is the strongest man in the world despite knowing Man'U's power
 
You can’t believe this:

And Ouki said Duke would give him a run for his money and a high mid diff fight i assume would qualify for that statement
And this:

He probably went from a very high - extreme diff for Ouki to maybe extreme diff him but not more than that
At the same time. If you think Duke Hyou pushes Ouki as hard as Rinbukun pushes Tou, then you should think Ouki only pushes Coalition Houken as hard as Rinbukun pushed Tou because Houken mangled Duke Hyou. Even when Duke Hyou threw Houken off and started to find his own weight, the fight was still over in like 3 hits lol.

Coalition Houken was clearly above Ouki.

So Ouki > Gaimou > Gyu'un should be fare
Only if you started at this conclusion beforehand and simply used selective evidence to reinforce your belief.

Without going too in depth, if we analyze feats and hype statements and such fully, then these 3 are extreme diff either way.
 
At the same time. If you think Duke Hyou pushes Ouki as hard as Rinbukun pushes Tou, then you should think Ouki only pushes Coalition Houken as hard as Rinbukun pushed Tou because Houken mangled Duke Hyou. Even when Duke Hyou threw Houken off and started to find his own weight, the fight was still over in like 3 hits lol.
It did end a lot faster than Rin bun Kun and Tou but Tou didn't get any injury while Houken got his arm broken :kayneshrug:
If some one can break your arm in the fight then that's a run for your money :goyea:
Only if you started at this conclusion beforehand and simply used selective evidence to reinforce your belief.
I did lol but i don't think i'm wrong :myman:
 
Then in another chapter or two, Moubu reveals that he was holding back, gives a speech about how happy he is that there are still foes who can give him a fight, flexes hard and matches Man U.

I would (metaphorically :kappa:) bet money on it. Lol.
Nah bro... its going to be like this now : post below.
Seems like ma boi Tou needs to go all out, finally.
Yup. TOU need to go all out now. :catrude:
 
I know :seriously:
But when a great general of a state that has fought for decades comes and claims he is the strongest of that state and nobody objects and accepts that as fact you can't bring another general of that said state who is stronger than him
If it was like the case with the fire dragons that he was in jail or hasn't been active or something then okay we can accept it but Man u has been active maybe not a lot but he has fought Kanmei before and is well known by the high ranking generals like Karin
Firstly, Man U is inactive. He is not allowed to lead any military campaigns. His only allowed role is to defend Juuko. Man U is basically forced to be the Chu equivalent of Shibashou.

Kanmei did not claim to be the strongest in Chu, he claimed to be the strongest in all of China. A claim that Moubu proved wrong. Lol. Besides, how was Man U supposed to object anyway? He was obviously not going to be allowed to fight Kanmei and he could not achieve greater feats than Kanmei since he was stuck at Juuko.

Kanmei and Man U supposedly fought in the past but Kanmei's defeat could have been purely a military one.
You know, I was wondering about the exact same thing. So I looked back at Chapters 311-313 and this is what I found.

Assuming that all these translations are 100% accurate and that Kanmei is telling the truth, Kanmei himself states that he has never suffered a single loss since his first campaign.
So there is still room for Kanmei to have suffered a military defeat in a battle before his first military campaign.

Military campaigns in Kingdom are usually overseen by Great Generals in most cases so if Kanmei was defeated before his first campaign then it is probable that he was defeated when he himself was only a General. If that is the case then it would have been General Kanmei vs (former) Great General(s) Man U/Sen To Un/Gen U/Juko Ou. Defeating a relatively inexperienced General Kanmei would be a completely different task to defeating the experienced Great General Kanmei that Moubu faced.

Interestingly, Kanmei does in fact mention that there was a foe only ten years ago that made him use his mace.
This could well be one of the Juuko Four (probably Man U). Considering that Kanmei defeated Great General Oukotsu with his sword.
This would mean that whoever Kanmei fought with his mace, Kanmei considered them to be stronger than Oukotsu, who was considered to be the strongest in brute strength out of the Qin Six.
So that would be some foreshadowed hype. :catsure:
I don't have a problem with Moubu getting overpowered or that there might be stronger people than him
If this guy was a mountain warrior, a Yan general or someone from Han i wouldn't have had any problem
Kanmei was said to be the strongest Chu general and now it looks like it was a lie
But if Moubu beats Man u later and we see that Man u is just very close to Kanmei and not stronger i would stop complaing but for now he seems a lot more impressive
Again, this.
I would actually consider what Kanmei did to be more impressive.

Man U knocked Moubu off of his horse. Moubu is going to weigh, what, around 120 kilograms? A bit more?

Kanmei sent Moubu flying along with his horse over a distance of several metres. That is going to involve Kanmei sending at bare minimum, over 1/2 a metric ton flying.
Also, Kanmei can be wrong without lying. For example, Kanmei whole heartedly believed that he was the strongest man in China. Moubu undoubtedly proved him wrong. Lol. That does not make Kanmei a liar, that just makes him incorrect.
 

RayanOO

Hero of Slaves
.
Houken was openly stated to have grown stronger than he was at Bayou.
Where was it stated ? I read again Duke Hyou fight and the only moment where someone said that Houken was stronger than he was in Bayou he this one : and it was only a no name foot soldier. We already had this debate before haha but I give more credit to Riboku's words who said that Houken didn't grow stronger and saw all Houken fights than the words of a no named soldier.

 
Where was it stated ? I read again Duke Hyou fight and the only moment where someone said that Houken was stronger than he was in Bayou he this one : and it was only a no name foot soldier. We already had this debate before haha but I give more credit to Riboku's words who said that Houken didn't grow stronger and saw all Houken fights than the words of a no named soldier.

Also go check out at Dakan Plains where Ouki says Duke Hyou would give Ouki a run for his money with a Glaive. Where I come from, this saying means Duke Hyou gives Ouki a pretty close fight.

And Houken at Kankoku utterly thrashed Duke Hyou with a Glaive. Duke Hyou virtually stood no chance of winning.
 
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Korean version of chapter 656

https://manatoki78.net/comic/5740716?spage=1
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Chapter summary thanks to Jeeswag in TKC :


Qin Side:
Ranbihaku reaches Moubu's army and his aide tells Moubu the plan. Though the Wei soldiers are against it, Gouhoumei's plan is to have the Wei act as support while the Qin are to be the main attacking force. He says there's no need for thanks and to hurry to attack the Chu HQ. Moubu says to shut up and that he should stop going off while relying on someone else's strength. As Moubu is heading off toward the Chu HQ Manu gets his attention saying he is his opponent. Moubu decides to take care of him while sending Raiki with his army up first. Manu also sends his elites back to support the HQ. His soldiers ask if it's okay since Manu's always competed with Sentoun to join the big battle. Manu says he wants to see more of what kind of man Moubu is.

Sentoun Side:
Rokuomi's barely hanging on and Sentoun calls him a stubborn one. Sentoun says that's enough and that he's going somewhere more fun. His soldier notices the Qin making their way towards their HQ and asks if they should go too. Sentoun says the more fun place to go is towards the Wei HQ where Gouhoumei is and that it's a race to see who will fall first. Rokuomi's soldier says it might not be such a bad thing if Gouhoumei falls here to which Rokuomi says at the moment they are allies so they will fight to their last breath for them. They decide to follow after Sentoun.

Wei Side:
Gouhoumei notices Sentoun coming and says that's expected and tells his soldiers to prepare to defend.

Qin Side:
Moubu is pushing past Manu's soldiers to which the Chu soldiers say they expected this much. Manu says Moubu is carrying something on his back while attempting to prove he is the strongest. That's why he was able to win against someone who was stronger. Moubu reminds Manu of how they all used to be before learning of "nothingness."

No break next week!
 
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I feel like we're going to see Sentoun trapped into some defensive bitch formation like the Ryuudou next chapter. Gohoumei seems fully prepared for Sento'Un's attack even without Rokuomi's help, i'm quite sure he's also hiding another martial beast (Jun Ei?) within his central army.

I know GHM needed a help to obsereve the entire battlefield against Duke Hyo, but he should have completely surpassed Reiou by now. He could be able to see the entire field while at ground level.
 
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