Is there anything more broken?

[Salah WG]

Dude GER cancels any event thats is going to happen immediately and throws them on infinite death loop there is nothing else..........no there exist only one GER.........so universal..........it can't exist in other verses..........do you even know about other verses?

How do you know all this?
GER was never explained, stop claiming things

I only claimed what it can do, but it's limits are unknown, stop creating them yourself
GER literally appeared in just one scene, we know nothing about it

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

Dude, are you one of those who say that Saitama can beat anyone? GER by feats is only universal. Go with this shit to comicvine or spacebattles and i will watch at this.

My Apologies, i will re-watch Jojo & see for myself the Limits of GER because we definitely seen it

 

[MonsterKaido]

How do you know all this?
GER was never explained, stop claiming things

I only claimed what it can do, but it's limits are unknown, stop creating them yourself
GER literally appeared in just one scene, we know nothing about it

I am not claiming anything if you can show some universal+ feats to me then we can talk.......World over heaven dio cancels GER(non-canon) It has basic reality warping abilities...........

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

How do you know all this?
GER was never explained, stop claiming things

I only claimed what it can do, but it's limits are unknown, stop creating them yourself
GER literally appeared in just one scene, we know nothing about it

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

 

[Salah WG]

I am not claiming anything if you can show some universal+ feats to me then we can talk.......World over heaven dio cancels GER(non-canon) It has basic reality warping abilities...........

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

Why are you answering me with Non-Canon?
We are talking about GER as the Author created it, not how Game Devs wanted it to be Scaled

 

[Cinera]

This would apply to any character who exists outside of time right? Several characters I’ve named, this applies to.

Even some of the “weaker” (feels wrong to use that word here lol) characters I’ve mentioned are strong enough to obliterate timelines on a universal scale altogether.

All higher order beings exist outside of time, space and concepts of the lower order world.

A 5th dimension human is beyond the time and space of our world. There are even further orders still within the human domain. An infinite hierarchy. Beyond all of that is the Witch's domain. That is the fundamental problem with Umineko, the cosmology is incredibly vast, and all powers and abilities only apply on the order in which it is defined.

You'll transcend beyond many (infinite?) nested universes before you become a Witch. Witches are complex multiversal in general.

When Odin and Seth battled, Odin was not only weakened, but their battle tore at the fabric of the multiverse. Literally their battle threatened the fundamental pillars of existence in general.

And a multiverse is but a small fragment to beings of an even higher order. Witches are complex multiversal of varying degrees infinitely(?) nested multiverses.

The fundamental issue is that even the weakest most insignificant of the Witches is on a transcendent plane of existence governing a complex multiverse.

They exist on a order higher than the entirety of the lower domains and control its "story", fate, laws and everything.

And like Chuck says in his video, even when using the Odinforce, Odin is not as powerful as Galactus and the Abstracts, who themselves are weaker than the outerversals of Marvel.

Marvel doesn't scale well to Umineko because of the transcendent hierarchy of Umineko witches.

Even the weakest of Umineko witches are comparable to Marvel's best by being complex multiversal.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Why are you answering me with Non-Canon?
We are talking about GER as the Author created it, not how Game Devs wanted it to be Scaled

No what I am talking about is DIO. Dio comes from other universe and GER doesn't do anything thats the point. Its is non-canon to manga mainline jojo in that terms............

 

[Steven]

It's funny how you tell me "No Proof it affects Multiverse" but still say "Multiverse Destroy it"
Do you have Proof that it can't work on Multiverse Level?

Because even Hardcore Fans sometimes Fail to understand what GER even does & yet you claim it's not Multiverse Level
It's also a Power we literally only saw Once, we haven't seen GER using more of it's Abilities or showing it's Limits

The Message of the Author is Clear, he didn't want to dive deeper into this Power because it's hard to be explained but the Point is that it's Most Broken, it Cancels anything

You abuse the NLF pretty hard

GER working on Multiverse n1ggas is a NLF

 

[Sentinel]

It's funny how you tell me "No Proof it affects Multiverse"

And where is the evidence that GER's hax affects multiverses on 4-D scale?

You see, you have to prove that GER's hax affects higher-dimensional beings. It's HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE that GER's hax affects a 4-dimensional space-time-continuum. It's not enough to claim "YoU dO nOt KnOw ThE lImItS oF sAiD aBiLiTy" as you are literally arguing with a no limit fallacy and you are in the burden of proof to provide your claim with evidence, not the other way around.

Characters on a higher dimensional "plane" or "layer" look at 3-dimensional characters like fiction. And the characters above said higher dimensional characters literally do the same until other characters reached the true omnipotence and absolute boundless.

 

[Cinera]

Also @Dragomir my dude, you should learn a bit more about battle forums, then you will get into a wonderful world of "above infinite multiversal", "Acausal", "Infinite Speed", "Reality Warping", "Higher-Dimensional", "Concept Manipulation", "True Immortal" and "Omni-Powers"
:cheers:

Man, it's being years since I've gotten into debates involving Tier 1 characters, but I had to stan Umineko when someone mentioned the most broken ability in all fiction.

GER doesn't Control anything, as i said it "Cancels"
There is no Broken Power more than "Cancelling" anything you do

Doesn't matter whether it's Universal or Multiverse Power, GER shown to be able to Cancel Power, Time, Death, Life, Reality, Space ... etc
And use this Power Infinitely, Automatically & Needless of anything

And i'm just talking about the Power he received after he acquired GER, we didn't talk about how it Boosted his also Powerful Hax & Abilities such as Granting & Creating Life, Redirecting Damage ... etc

Also, it should be noted that Diavolo can Skip Time, he himself was already Cancelling Time & yet GER could Cancel that lol
It could Cancel a Canceling Ability on a Scale of Time

I honestly can't see anyone stopping GER

@Salah WG: GER only works on a universal scale, so it doesn't compare to abilities that work on a multiversal (infinite universes) scale or on even higher hierarchies.

@MonsterKaido: I was using Vs Battles terms.


@Admiral Lee Hung: for what it's worth, Vs Battles rates The One Above All at 1-A as an Outerversal entity (which places him on par with Voyagers).


Anyway, here's the scaling on Vs Battles once you reach the Universe level.
Universal —> High Universal (Countably Infinite) —> Multiversal (infinite universes, uncountably infinite) —> High Multiversal —> Complex Multiversal (nested multiverses) —> High Complex Multiversal —> Hyperversal —> High Hyperversal —> Outerversal (Voyagers, The One Above All The Presence (Yahweh): 1A) —> High Outerversal (Featherine Augustus Aurora, The Divine Presence: High 1A) —> Boundless (The Creator, Azatoth, Yog Sothoth: Tier 0)

 

[MonsterKaido]

Man, it's being years since I've gotten into debates involving Tier 1 characters, but I had to stan Umineko when someone mentioned the most broken ability in all fiction.

@Salah WG: GER only works on a universal scale, so it doesn't compare to abilities that work on a multiversal (infinite universes) scale or on even higher hierarchies.

@MonsterKaido: I was using Vs Battles terms.


@Admiral Lee Hung: for what it's worth, Vs Battles rates The One Above All at 1-A as an Outerversal entity (which places him on par with Voyagers).

Anyway, here's the scaling on Vs Battles once you reach the Universe level.
Universal —> High Universal (Countably Infinite) —> Multiversal (infinite universes, uncountably infinite) —> Multiversal+ —> High Multiversal Complex Multiversal (nested multiverses) —> Hyperversal —> High Hyperversal —> Outerversal —> Outerversal+ (Voyagers True Form) —> High Outerversal (Featherine's True Form) —> Boundless (The Creator)

Well featherine is also my one of fav top tiers :cheers:

 

[Sentinel]

for what it's worth, Vs Battles rates The One Above All at 1-A as an Outerversal entity (which places him on par with Voyagers).

Was TOAA not boundless? Why did they put it at 1-A?

 

[Enma]

Saying that GER has affect on Multiversals (or Universal Omnipotents) is stupid. It's like saying "Hulk strength is infinite since he can get angry forever" but his strongest form is WWH which is Planet Level or saying "Juggernaut can get as powerful as he wants" even though his power comes from Cyttorak, who is only Hell Lord and Skyfather level at max, so it's false from the beginning. Where are proofs, Billy?

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

Was TOAA not boundless? Why did they put it at 1-A?

@Sentinel I bet it's because of HoTU Thanos storyline.

 

[Cao Cao]

Abilities like that are mostly impressive against everyone who is bound by cause and effect, but if it comes against characters with some basic acausality, then verses like Bleach, JJBA and etc. are not really impressive, because space-time, or causality has not affect to beings on a higher level of existence mostly. Characters from Magi like the Guardian of the Sacred Palace Sinbad, Ugo, David, etc. are far beyond cause and effect, since they are fiction to them an appears in a different way. In Saint Seiya every 8th sense user isn´t bound by space-time, so resetting time is useless. 9th sense users are borderline acasual, which means they can´t be affect by such abilities since even the concept of life and death is a lower concept, that doesn´t appear to gods. In Bastard!!, people like Dark Schneider, Uriel aren´t bound by cause and effect either, because they exist on a different plane beyond space-time and the laws of the universe. Demonbane has characters that can transcend cause and effect to make it useless. There are a lot more characters. If we make a comparison in terms of hax the JJBA verse for example would be a 4 from 10, while verses like ToAru, Sailor Moon, Saint Seiya, Bastard, Magi, Noein, Umineko, Dies Irae, and around 100+ more verses have superior hax or immunity against such concepts. However, there are characters that can use concepts like death, time, etc. on a higher level even against acasual beings, for example Yogiri from Instant Death who can even transcend the concept on a higher level even against beings, which aren´t bound by that concept before. There are also some abstract concepts in DC/Vertigo from Dream/Morpheus, who can not only manipulate all dreams from living beings, but also from computers, stars, the universe, etc.

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

@Cinera @Cao Cao

Wait, the strongest Demonbane characters are only multiverse level+ in VS Battle now???

Yes, around multiversal. There is a more powerful version which is unknown in VsBattle, called Haikashin/Vortex Blaster Demonbane. That version is some kind of omniversal since it destroyed entire crossover verses like Fate, Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Co. in a game and is also canon to the Demonbane series.

 

[Dragomir]

@Salah WG I think this post from Akai should help answer the question about GER being multiversal or universal.

Never peeped Marvel or DC comics so can't comment on that.

On Jojo,

Spoiler: JOJO PART 6 SPOILERS

Araki said Made in Heaven was the most broken ability he could think of. He said it had to be something with reality/time manipulation. And obviously with Pucci's religious motif, he created the concept of eradicating people's despair by making them reincarnate after knowing the ultimate consequences of their action. It's probably the most broken manga ability I came across. I can't find the interview now, but he said the reason he decided to reboot Jojo in a new universe after Part 6 was because he could never think of anything stronger than Made in Heaven in the same verse lol

Araki, the author of JJBA, apparently stated that Made in Heaven was the most broken ability in the series. Made in Heaven basically accelerated time so fast to the point that it reset the universe right? The thing is, it only reset one universe. Not all in existence. So from feats, we can see that it's only universal. From Araki's statement, MiH is automatically > GER. So from just a pure scaling perspective, GER is also universal(I hope I'm using the right logic here lol).

So on your question about if GER is strictly universal or transcends that then this should hopefully answer it. We don't need a statement about it when we can infer using other feats in the manga.

Now, I'm just using a barebones understanding of universal and multiversal as I'm just now learning about it from this thread. So if y'all could correct me if I'm wrong, that'd be much appreciated.

 

[Cao Cao]

Was TOAA not boundless? Why did they put it at 1-A?

TOAA was downgrated, because he claimed in a chapter that he isn´t the most powerful being(anymore). Same also happens with Beyonder decades ago, when he lost a big part of his power. At this point Marvel is horrible, because too many different writers doesn´t know what the other do. Hower, that doesn´t mean they are weak. They have some potent hax too which works on a multiversal scale.

EDIT: Found the scan, which was probably the main reason why Tier 0 was unrealistic:

 

[Dragomir]

Also @Dragomir my dude, you should learn a bit more about battle forums, then you will get into a wonderful world of "above infinite multiversal", "Acausal", "Infinite Speed", "Reality Warping", "Higher-Dimensional", "Concept Manipulation", "True Immortal" and "Omni-Powers"
:cheers:

Yeah, I'ma take some time for sure to learn about these if I get some free time in the future. They sound really interesting.

 

[Cao Cao]

Saint seiya - Premordial Gods/Titans/Gods
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Saint_Seiya

Here is a good blog from another Wiki, if someone is interested in the most basic abilities higher sense users and gods in SS has.

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah, I'ma take some time for sure to learn about these if I get some free time in the future. They sound really interesting.

This would help you to understand the different layes of higher dimensions even better in terms of fiction:

Multiverse

 

[Cao Cao]

This would help you to understand the different layes of higher dimensions even better in terms of fiction:

Multiverse

And that is just one of many explanations. There isn´t really a correct, or wrong explanation if it comes to dimensional tiering in fiction, because most verses are using complete different multiverse/multi-dimensional structures, which makes it impossible to equalize higher dimensions from other verses. One example is STTGL, who exist in a 11-D multiverse. Explained by the anime and by the databook, they are using some sort of different scientific multiverses. like the M-Theory. That´s why STTGL in VsBattle is High 1-C, but based on the function of different multiverses in science AND based on the function of multiverses in fiction, there is already the error to put him on that level, because some people who are maybe only 2-A, or Low 1-C are probably from a multiverse with a superior function. One example would be Magi, which uses a infinite dimensional structure, not based on most scientific theories, but more based on some platonic stuff, like a higher dimension = Superior reality, while lower dimensions are literally fiction. That doesn´t appear to all multiversal structures, in fact that only appears mostly in fiction. 11-D GL verse would be still inferior to a 5-D Magi god, because the entire 11-D structure is a inferior product that doesn´t influence higher dimensions in a comparable or superior way. 11-D, where a mecha is still some kind part of a physical multiverse.

There are a lot different dimensional tiering stuff, too much to find a consensus, which is the most accurate way. VsBattle is mostly not accepted by the bigger battle boards, but tbf they don´t brought up a better variation, because at some point you contradict with the dimensionality. Equalizing dimensions from different fiction is a big mistake, and that is something which VsBattle did a lot, because they mix different types of multiverses together. Doesn´t mean they are bad, they have a lot good explanations and are more or less the founder of the modern battle debates. Terms like hax, or NLF are made by VsBattle and people who still hate this page, are using those terms. Imo you can learn from all Wikis and battle boards the good things and try to find a consensus. Unfortunately, it is impossible, because the complexcity of the entire tiering system. If someone take time too do some research about dimensional structures, theories about different multiverses/universes, etc. he will know, that there isn´t a correct way. That´s why i argue more for the point that there exist multiverses with a superior structure (Umineko), and multiverses which uses are more primitive structure (Dragonball). The context is mostly the relevant part in that debates.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

@Admiral Lee Hung: for what it's worth, Vs Battles rates The One Above All at 1-A as an Outerversal entity (which places him on par with Voyagers).

Yeah, which is in and of itself a controversial ranking. Vs Battle Wiki also lists the Living Tribunal as 1-A, which is correct, but the One Above All is above the Living Tribunal. Vs Battle Wiki has never ben the most reliable site for these types of scalings, they're okay for a quick reference but there internal logic often collapses under scrutiny, and we all know this lol.

There's another website I found, battles-profile.fandom.com, and they do the One Above All a better job, as they list him at Tier 0, and they list the Fulcrum (an aspect of the One Above All) at 1-A. I think they use the same tiering system as well. They also list the Living Tribunal at 1-A. They don't have nearly as many pages as VB Wiki but I'd like to see them scale other characters like Galactus, Dormamu, Thor, Surtur, Exitar, etc..

Anyway, here's the scaling on Vs Battles once you reach the Universe level.
Universal —> High Universal (Countably Infinite) —> Multiversal (infinite universes, uncountably infinite) —> High Multiversal —> Complex Multiversal (nested multiverses) —> High Complex Multiversal —> Hyperversal —> High Hyperversal —> Outerversal (Voyagers, The One Above All The Presence (Yahweh): 1A) —> High Outerversal (Featherine Augustus Aurora, The Divine Presence: High 1A) —> Boundless (The Creator, Azatoth, Yog Sothoth: Tier 0)

Yeah like @Cao Cao said, there's really not a definitive answer to this stuff in the comics, I have never seen any evidence of Marvel distinguishing between Outerversal and High Outerversal for example lol.

But even in Marvel and DC, this stuff is left intentionally vague to leave room for future storylines and also to fuel discussion within fandoms lol.

 

[Sentinel]

If someone take time too do some research about dimensional structures, theories about different multiverses/universes, etc. he will know, that there isn´t a correct way.

You are absolutely correct about this whole topic.
On the other hand, posting @Dragomir a more simple explanation of multiverse scaling and how it works was because it should give him at least a better understanding how multiverses briefly look like and what we're actually debating here in the first place.

VS Battles Wiki has a lot of faulty scaling - for example, their downgraded Majora due to nonsense reasons - but for quick researches, this site is not bad, as you said.