General & Others Next Strawhat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[Logiko]

And still your answer has nothing to do about the story. Instead of saying “it’s written in the manga from chapter X and etc” you say “I think” which means that is your theory and opinion, not based on facts. “Surprise factor” has nothing to do with what Oda has written so far. He has always followed the pattern, and you don’t even explain why Oda needs to do “surprise factor” for Carrot only, while you never mentioned what makes her “special” for Oda to do the surprise factor.

And for the record, I still stand with my point that you’re a whole circus. You can keep being delusional, and we can keep laughing at you. It’s a win win solution. If you’re triggered that we’re laughing at you, I pretty much missed the part where that’s my problem.

I have made multiple post with clear deconstruction of the material. But I admit my lazyness, I won't make analysis I have already done elsewhere here. That's why I'm giving you links.. If you choose to ignore them, that's okay, but don't tell me that I'm not giving you enough evidences.

Concerning the "specialness" of Carrot, this has nothing to do with the story, only with the context, that's why I THINK it's related to three thing:


- Time
- Context
- Story lengh

Now.. instead of debatting those points like a normal person (they are debattable, contrary to the evidences in the story as this is just a theory) your are just laughing at the entire argumentation.. because it's me.. how can I take that behavior seriously lol?

Also you might have miss my point.. I'm not triggered by your laughers.. when you laugh at one of my strong points, I only picture you as someone who don't understand what I talking about and laughing because of ignorance.. You can call me a circus if you want lol, it only reenforce this point of view.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I have made multiple post with clear deconstruction of the material. But I admit my lazyness, I won't make analysis I have already done elsewhere here. That's why I'm giving you links.. If you choose to ignore them, that's okay, but don't tell me that I'm not giving you enough evidences.

Concerning the "specialness" of Carrot, this has nothing to do with the story, only with the context, that's why I THINK it's related to three thing:


Because of three things:

- Time
- Context
- Story lengh

Now.. instead of debatting those points like a normal person (they are debattable, contrary to the evidences in the story as this is just a theory) your are just laughing at the entire argumentation.. because it's me.. how can I take that behavior seriously lol?

Also you might have miss my point.. I'm not triggered by your laughers.. when you laugh at one of my strong points, I only picture you as someone who don't understand what I talking about and laughing because of ignorance.. You can call me a circus if you want lol, it only reenforce this point of view.

 

[Logiko]

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

I have made multiple post with clear deconstruction of the material. But I admit my lazyness, I won't make analysis I have already done elsewhere here. That's why I'm giving you links.. If you choose to ignore them, that's okay, but don't tell me that I'm not giving you enough evidences.

Concerning the "specialness" of Carrot, this has nothing to do with the story, only with the context, that's why I THINK it's related to three thing:


Because of three things:

- Time
- Context
- Story lengh

Now.. instead of debatting those points like a normal person (they are debattable, contrary to the evidences in the story as this is just a theory) your are just laughing at the entire argumentation.. because it's me.. how can I take that behavior seriously lol?

Also you might have miss my point.. I'm not triggered by your laughers.. when you laugh at one of my strong points, I only picture you as someone who don't understand what I talking about and laughing because of ignorance.. You can call me a circus if you want lol, it only reenforce this point of view.

Funny, remembering that you keep saying that everybody else who disagrees with you, you call them: “can’t see the story” and “need to read the whole story” while in this reply you ignored the story and goes for the context instead.

And if you say there is no time, context, and story length, the facts remain that Oda has them:
- Time: Oda has the time to give Yamato flashbacks and spotlight; but he doesn’t have it for Carrot.
- Context: Oda has the context to give Yamato depth of her past, her purpose, her personal conflict, etc; but he doesn’t have it for Carrot (2)
- Story length: Oda has the time and context to make Wano act 3 more than a year, giving Yamato proper story length; but he doesn’t give it for Carrot (3)

In case of giving those to Carrot, Oda instead giving them to Yamato. And the reason why Oda doesn’t give those to Carrot because: (you think it is) surprise. Instead of trying to cope, you should give proper evidence and think thoroughly why Oda doesn’t give any damn for Carrot, but he gives so much to Yamato. And again; if you want to reply, reply with facts, not theories nor opinions. I’d pretty much choose to ignore you if you give more theories & opinions, as replying to you would make me lose my brain cells.

You said you’re not triggered but pretty much what you’ve been doing shows that you’re triggered. Play the victim card, accusing people being toxic for disagreeing with you, and even do the same thing yourself; only to deny what you’ve been doing. Not surprising that the denial comes from the person who does coping as his way to pay the bills and survive his life.

And again: I missed the part where that’s my problem.
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@Pot Goblin As the others said, you gave a reasonable outlook on Carrot despite if I disagree with some areas. You made a better case for her in a day or two than C4N has done in months.

It's honestly not impossible for Carrot to be a special case as you said since Oda follows no strict pattern with SHs. They used to all be teens then Chopper joined. They used to never to be villains until Robin joined. They had a whole story arc before they asked then Brook asked right away. Our last one took multiple arcs and a decade to finally join. Point being that no one can truly right her off from being special.

The problem I have is that there is a consistent pattern that they all have and what we use to point at Yamato. With every recruit, they're majorly involved in the plot, a flashback is there for us to see their struggle, and Luffy is the one to free them from their chains. In the arc they join, it feels like them and Luffy have a special dynamic that's meant to last. Even if you could stretch Carrot to fit these, its a struggle to do so and less apparent than the others.

Yamato is a lot safer of a bet with the majority since she easily checks off these boxes without effort. She's the main character of Wano alongside Momo. Her flashback shows how she was chained for 20 years being abused by her dad and forced to be alone. Luffy and her have a special relationship through Ace and the fact that she waited years for him to save her. The nail in the coffin is that Yamato blatantly says she wants to sail with Luffy, which no character in the series has said without joining.

Obviously one character's chances don't affect another's. Carrot would still be low in the community even if Yamato didn't exist since these same arguments would still be in place. I'm just running off my assumption that only 1 SH is left so I have to compare here.

You're a lost cause and I give up trying to be rational to you. Just continue being the fuel for why people are more anti Carrot. You did a good job already by making @Gaimon The Pirate go from neutral to against her in less than a day. Have fun trying to "educate" the same people with the same arguments they made clear they don't agree with. Maybe the next day they'll magically change their mind.

https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-and-the-grand-fleet.79/page-579#post-2000994

https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-and-the-grand-fleet.79/page-580#post-2001073

A reminder for you that back then, the person you’re arguing with (not Pot Goblin) is the same person who denies his own words in few next replies. The evidence is pretty much there, you can open the conversation link and see the conversation. I believe you need something to laugh at.

 

[Logiko]

Funny, remembering that you keep saying that everybody else who disagrees with you, you call them: “can’t see the story” and “need to read the whole story” while in this reply you ignored the story and goes for the context instead.

Huh ? no..

Take @Sigran101 for example. He mostly disagree with me.. but he is debatting on the field of the arguments, not an simple ad personnam and I reply only with argumentation.. that's called a conversation: We do not agree, but we are not laughing at each others because we actually respect the point of you of the other.


----

And if you say there is no time, context, and story length, the facts remain that Oda has them:
- Time: Oda has the time to give Yamato flashbacks and spotlight; but he doesn’t have it for Carrot.
- Context: Oda has the context to give Yamato depth of her past, her purpose, her personal conflict, etc; but he doesn’t have it for Carrot (2)
- Story length: Oda has the time and context to make Wano act 3 more than a year, giving Yamato proper story length; but he doesn’t give it for Carrot (3)

My bad, I should have been more precise. I'm not saying that Oda lack storylengh and context, I'm just saying that those parameters are important to analyse the specialness of Carrot.

Storylengh: It means that Oda made such a huge story that he MIGHT want to change things a bit to make the story more organic.

Time: here I do I'm talking about the lack of time.. remember, Yamato is an integral part of the Wano story, her characterization fits the narrative perfectly, so Oda has the liberty to develop her. Carrot is not so lucky, her story has nothing to do with Wano or even whole cake. (at least for now.. ) so the time to developp Carrot right now is limited. So Oda needed to find a way to make Carrot relevant without giving her a full backstory. A backstory must always be prepared first. When an author give you a backstory, it means that the author made you wish to see it first.. there was really no way to do that with Carrot. Therefore Oda choosed to place everything in the present.

Context: This is the most important parameter. i'm not talking about the story, but the actual context of the serialisation of One Piece, the fans, the theory video, the development of internet etc.

The context now is completely different that when we were on Thriller bark, theories are not just located on forum now, they are everywhere, and people are now analysing One Piece with a better eyes that 13 years ago, because of the surpopulation of Medias everywhere.

I "think" Oda choosed to adapt to this. Instead of making the last strawhat with the same backstory, he choosed to twick is writing a bit and gave everything Carrot needed.. but in the present.

The next strawhat being the next big revelation .. it needs to be special, that why I think Oda is playing with the expectations of the readers with Carrot, but also using Yamato as a decoy and playing with her hype.. Because here is the thing.. Yamato still lacks some of the things Carrot has..

In case of giving those to Carrot, Oda instead giving them to Yamato. And the reason why Oda doesn’t give those to Carrot because: (you think it is) surprise. Instead of trying to cope, you should give proper evidence and think thoroughly why Oda doesn’t give any damn for Carrot, but he gives so much to Yamato. And again; if you want to reply, reply with facts, not theories nor opinions. I’d pretty much choose to ignore you if you give more theories & opinions, as replying to you would make me lose my brain cells.

If you are respectfull, do you die ?
Their can't be no evidences for the reason Carrot is so special but context explanations and theory.

You said you’re not triggered but pretty much what you’ve been doing shows that you’re triggered. Play the victim card, accusing people being toxic for disagreeing with you, and even do the same thing yourself; only to deny what you’ve been doing. Not surprising that the denial comes from the person who does coping as his way to pay the bills and survive his life.

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https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-and-the-grand-fleet.79/page-579#post-2000994

https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-and-the-grand-fleet.79/page-580#post-2001073

A reminder for you that back then, the person you’re arguing with (not Pot Goblin) is the same person who denies his own words in few next replies. The evidence is pretty much there, you can open the conversation link and see the conversation. I believe you need something to laugh at.

Wow.. you still don't understand the problem with what your are denouncing right ? xD

Rethoric is not your forte isn't it?

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

Wow.. you still don't understand the problem with what your are denouncing right ? xD

Rethoric is not your forte isn't it?

I guess I have to reply to this post only because your other replies are pointless (as usual):

I do understand, everybody understands, but you. You twist your own words where everybody can see it.

And it’s okay if I’m not a forte in “rhetoric”, I appreciate if some people are really proud being a forte in such very low subject. Unless your name is Wikipedia, stop trying so hard to look clever and know everything.

 

[Staticshadic]

Let's all stop being hypocrits.. the only reason your are listening to @Pot Goblin is because they didn't enter the forum denouncing the toxicity toward Carrot.

So I'm glad you are actually listening to them (for once) but don't explain that it's because they are making better point, when they are making the exact same point I make (with some exception)

The truth is you people don't like to be attacked on your values. But this won't stop me from calling out the toxicity toward Carrot.





indeed.



Not really, for example, in the case of Franky, Luffy didn't freed him from his chains.. He did it by himself.



A missconception is that Carrot checks the box of the flashback.. This is wrong. The flashback of Yamato is NOT enough (for now), it's lacks multiple narrative parameters that all the flashbacks had (basically the setup for the needs and the moral pillar).



Actually Carrot was high before the apparition of Yamato.



As you wish. This won't stop me from debatting here.

If you are anti Carrot because of a fan, it only show that you don't have a strong opinion, nothing more as it is an illogical behavior.

Wrong

Franky had common enemy like robin that was the world government and it's darkness. Did you forget about Franky’s flashback? Franky had self-blame losing his mentor because of ships he built hurt the people he loved and cared for. It was Luffy, Iceberg and even Robin pushes him along come with them instead blaming himself for losing mentor. Live your life to fullest be proud the things you create rather than being shameful of them. It was Spadam that managed his ships for wrong purpose not himself. Before that when Franky was forced to join. He saw what Luffy and others strawhats did to rescue Robin that made him so proud, and tear eyed that these guys were willing to stand up against the world government to rescue one friend they do not care what enemy stands in their way.

Carrot flashback is just one page that's how she got her gauntlets
We do not know history between her and Pedro
She had not even spoken about the dawn that pedro spoke of.
Her enemy's that have personally affect her were basically subordinates that were defeat by non-straw hats.
Yes, it is true that half of strawhats pulled her out of the darkness. As well She learns the reality the sea is dangerous place, so she has to be more cautious of the dangers that lie ahead. Who was the enemy that mocked her selfless desires? Who was enemies that hurt homeland? kanjoura, jack, and Perospero.
Kanjoura manages be the person who tells Jack the one of the samaurai are in zou. Which end up Jack almost killing her people. Perospero mock her nativity for her selfless goal.

Who were characters who defeated them? Kinemon, CatViper and Dogstorm

Carrot throughout 3 arcs she has been more support character rather than a main character.
Even in the zou's flashback she practically is background character.

Hell, the girl has not even had 1v1 conversation with Luffy or any other straw hats about her own personal desires what it means to achieve her own goal how it has developed while experience her adventure with them.

So, the bottom line is this we do know Carrot’s characteristics. Her selfless ambition. Her role on the team. She has experience loss of losing her mentor figure. As well learning from her experience with her adventure with them. Half of strawhats pulled her out of the darkness. Finally coming to understand strawhats could be something more. The thing that carrot lack is story centric arc tht center around her as a character, superbly detail flashback surrounding her relationship with pedro and the dawn the spoke of. As well her importance moving forward. As well an enemy that the strawhats have to deal with push her forward to be among them become stronger for them. She lacks having 1v1 conversation with Captain himself

 

[Logiko]

I guess I have to reply to this post only because your other replies are pointless (as usual):

I do understand, everybody understands, but you. You twist your own words where everybody can see it.

And it’s okay if I’m not a forte in “rhetoric”, I appreciate if some people are really proud being a forte in such very low subject. Unless your name is Wikipedia, stop trying so hard to look clever and know everything.

Talking about pointless.. xD

"You twist your own words where everybody can see it" Fine... let's see.. So let's deconstruct what I said in the link you have us:

One the first post: "See.. dead center ? That the next mugiwara my guyz. Cope with it. "
On the second post: "Where do you see that I say that because Carrot is in the poll, she will be the next Nakama ? I only said "THIS is the next Nakama" What are you even saying dude ? Are you ok ? "

You seemed to believe strangely that I twisted my own words here.. In other words, that I came back on my second post on the words I said on my first"..

So.. little question:

Do you know how to read ?
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Wrong

Franky had common enemy like robin that was the world government and it's darkness. Did you forget about Franky’s flashback? Franky had self-blame losing his mentor because of ships he built hurt the people he loved and cared for. It was Luffy, Iceberg and even Robin pushes him along come with them instead blaming himself for losing mentor. Live your life to fullest be proud the things you create rather than being shameful of them. It was Spadam that managed his ships for wrong purpose not himself. Before that when Franky was forced to join. He saw what Luffy and others strawhats did to rescue Robin that made him so proud, and tear eyed that these guys were willing to stand up against the world government to rescue one friend they do not care what enemy stands in their way.

I'm not saying that Franky's ennemy was the CP9, I'm saying that Franky liberated himself from them (between the arrival of the gang and the start of the fight in fact)

Luffy did battled the CP9, but it was in relation to the story of Robin, not Franky.

Carrot flashback is just one page that's how she got her gauntlets
We do not know history between her and Pedro
She had not even spoken about the dawn that pedro spoke of.
Her enemy's that have personally affect her were basically subordinates that were defeat by non-straw hats.
Yes, it is true that half of strawhats pulled her out of the darkness. As well She learns the reality the sea is dangerous place, so she has to be more cautious of the dangers that lie ahead. Who was the enemy that mocked her selfless desires? Who was enemies that hurt homeland? kanjoura, jack, and Perospero.
Kanjoura manages be the person who tells Jack the one of the samaurai are in zou. Which end up Jack almost killing her people. Perospero mock her nativity for her selfless goal.

Who were characters who defeated them? Kinemon, CatViper and Dogstorm

Carrot throughout 3 arcs she has been more support character rather than a main character.
Even in the zou's flashback she practically is background character.

Like I said, I'm not sure we can count perospero as the core ennemy of Carrot just yet. Perospero is more of a reminder of that danger that lies ahead. I really think the real "villain" of Carrot will appear later in the story. Of course this is just a theory, but it would make more sence.

Hell, the girl has not even had 1v1 conversation with Luffy or any other straw hats about her own personal desires what it means to achieve her own goal how it has developed while experience her adventure with them.

This is something that can completely happen later in the story. This is not a good parameter to rule Carrot's out. Plus, Carrot may have already gone through those discussion off screen, let me remind you that Carrot spent MULTIPLE week with Luffy/Brook/Nami/Chopper and sanji. Oda is used to developp the relationship of the characters offscreen.

So, the bottom line is this we do know Carrot’s characteristics. Her selfless ambition. Her role on the team. She has experience loss of losing her mentor figure. As well learning from her experience with her adventure with them. Half of strawhats pulled her out of the darkness. Finally coming to understand strawhats could be something more. The thing that carrot lack is story centric arc tht center around her as a character, superbly detail flashback surrounding her relationship with pedro and the dawn the spoke of. As well her importance moving forward. As well an enemy that the strawhats have to deal with push her forward to be among them become stronger for them. She lacks having 1v1 conversation with Captain himself

I agree that we need a moment of pause in the story, only related to Carrot's character. But Pedro's and Carrot relationship does not need to be more flesh out. We had everything we needed. Another flashback is not a necessity, as everything was setup without it. And I agree, a little conversation with Luffy is needed too. Those things are for now, what really lack Carrot.. but let's just be honest..

If those things were present in the story, with all we have about Carrot, Carrot wouldn't be a subject for debate.

 

[JoSeungHun7335]

Talking about pointless.. xD

"You twist your own words where everybody can see it" Fine... let's see.. So let's deconstruct what I said in the link you have us:

One the first post: "See.. dead center ? That the next mugiwara my guyz. Cope with it. "
On the second post: "Where do you see that I say that because Carrot is in the poll, she will be the next Nakama ? I only said "THIS is the next Nakama" What are you even saying dude ? Are you ok ? "

You seemed to believe strangely that I twisted my own words here.. In other words, that I came back on my second post on the words I said on my first"..

So.. little question:

Do you know how to read ?

In your 2nd post you claimed yourself “THIS IS THE NEXT NAKAMA”, while in the 1st post you said “next mugiwara.” Your points contradict each other, that’s why I said you twist your own words. Even my dead grandmother knew that in the 1st post you said “mugiwara” and in the 2nd post you said “nakama”, and those words are very different words. One has 8 letters, another has 6 letters. I don’t understand how my dead grandmother who was pretty much illiterate knew the difference and has better reading comprehension than you. Even with different words those two have pretty much same meaning since it’s One Piece. I know you have extremely low knowledge in Japanese, but you can keep digging a new low.

The question whether I can read or not should be asked to yourself, because you’re the one here who keeps using terrible grammar & vocabularies; not me.

No need to feel triggered that you need to attack my reading comprehension (which no one has ever complained), as you’re the one who’s having that problem. I know it’s hard for you to acknowledge that you’re mistaken, you have low knowledge in grammar and vocabularies, or that you have reading comprehension problem, but then again: I missed the part where that’s my problem. Keep digging a new low.

 

[Logiko]

In your 2nd post you claimed yourself “THIS IS THE NEXT NAKAMA”, while in the 1st post you said “next mugiwara.” Your points contradict each other, that’s why I said you twist your own words. Even my dead grandmother knew that in the 1st post you said “mugiwara” and in the 2nd post you said “nakama”, and those words are very different words. One has 8 letters, another has 6 letters. I don’t understand how my dead grandmother who was pretty much illiterate knew the difference and has better reading comprehension than you. Even with different words those two have pretty much same meaning since it’s One Piece. I know you have extremely low knowledge in Japanese, but you can keep digging a new low.

WHat ??? O_o but that's the same thing in that context!! I'm just saying "that's the next mugiwara"

I know those two are "different words" but in that context, they basically mean the same s***

I mean wtf dude..

The question whether I can read or not should be asked to yourself, because you’re the one here who keeps using terrible grammar & vocabularies; not me.

Well granted, my english is not that good

No need to feel triggered that you need to attack my reading comprehension (which no one has ever complained), as you’re the one who’s having that problem. I know it’s hard for you to acknowledge that you’re mistaken, you have low knowledge in grammar and vocabularies, or that you have reading comprehension problem, but then again: I missed the part where that’s my problem. Keep digging a new low.

That's exactly the problem lol You tried to make me look bad on saying that I was twisting my word when you didn't even understood what I meant lol

On the difference between "mugiwara" and "Nakama".. damn, that's sad

 

[Uncle Van]

@CarrotForNakama

Your whole argument is that Yamato is a red herring for Carrot, with Oda giving subtle clues as to why he plans on swerving the reader with Yamato staying and Carrot joining as a stowaway, even though it relies on the idea that Oda will not only do something he's never done before, but the exact opposite of what he's been doing for the longest time just for Carrot and Carrot alone.

A supposed "story telling analyst" would have known that Oda wants to retire by age 50 and is speedrunning the series. Oda has said that there are plenty of things he wants to do but can't due to lack of time, and outside sources like the Vivre Cards are for giving canon info that he doesn't have time to address in the manga. Despite this, he's doing nothing with Carrot.

But Oda is supposedly separating Carrot from all the main and important plot points as some sort of secret SH plan.

 

[Logiko]

@CarrotForNakama

Your whole argument is that Yamato is a red herring for Carrot, with Oda giving subtle clues as to why he plans on swerving the reader with Yamato staying and Carrot joining as a stowawa, .......

Well.. there is bit more to my argument than just that but yeah..

.......... even though it relies on the idea that Oda will not only do something he's never done before, but the exact opposite of what he's been doing for the longest time just for Carrot and Carrot alone.

Wrong.. As I explained multiple time already. The setup for the recrutment for Vivi in the last few chapters of Alabasta IS a narrative red hearing. So it DID happened before.

A supposed "story telling analyst" would have known that Oda wants to retire by age 50 and is speedrunning the series. Oda has said that there are plenty of things he wants to do but can't due to lack of time, and outside sources like the Vivre Cards are for giving canon info that he doesn't have time to address in the manga. Despite this, he's doing nothing with Carrot.

He is doing everything needed with Carrot... so wrong.

But Oda is supposedly separating Carrot from all the main and important plot points as some sort of secret SH plan.

Yup, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Sigran101]

@CarrotForNakama can you explain what part of the narrative you think hints at Carrot having a connection to the main villain in the future? I agree with your analysis of Perospero's words, but nothing about it seems to imply that whatever is in store for Carrot will come in the form of a dedicated arc or a connection with a major vilain.

 

[Uncle Van]

Well.. there is bit more to my argument than just that but yeah..



Wrong.. As I explained multiple time already. The setup for the recrutment for Vivi in the last few chapters of Alabasta IS a narrative red hearing. So it DID happened before.




He is doing everything needed with Carrot... so wrong.



Yup, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I knew you'd bring up Viv and Robin despite all the arguments against it.

So Vivi-Robin=Yamato-Carrot. I thought good story telling is subverting expectations, but Oda will the exact same thing he's supposedly done before?

Vivi was a princess with duties to her kingdom. Her duties were mentioned repeatedly throughout the saga and at the very end, was given a choice to either stay or leave. She obviously choose to stay which wasn't surprising. Yamato always wanted to leave Wano which was her prison and at the end of the arc she will have a choice of either staying in her prison or achieving her dream?

Robin was a villain. She had no real positive interaction with the SHs aside from Luffy saving her which is why the swerve worked. She was also directly connected to a major plot point in the series. In hindsight, we know that she was foreshadowed and planned way ahead. Not only Carrot doesn't have any foreshadowing along with no SH concept art, she is very popular and many bank on her being a SH. How can you swerve people like that?

 

[Logiko]

@CarrotForNakama can you explain what part of the narrative you think hints at Carrot having a connection to the main villain in the future? I agree with your analysis of Perospero's words, but nothing about it seems to imply that whatever is in store for Carrot will come in the form of a dedicated arc or a connection with a major vilain.

That's mostly a theory right now but mainly:

- The words of Perospero while defeating Carrot. This tells me that somewhere down the line, Carrot will have to face the same challenge and be (this time) victorious
- The fact that Carrot find the geant so amazing.. I have the feeling that what Carrot sees as "amazing" ends up actually very dangerous (the sea/ Whole cake/ The rivers of Wano etc.)
- The fact that carrot has been depicted during WC arc as a SEMI-main character (not fully as a main character but not a background one either), this tells me that Carrot should at least be "rewarded" with at least one victorious duel


I do not think that Carrot's arc will come in the form of a dedicated arc.. we are too close to the end, it would be a miracle. Nah.. I think this will look like more like a storyline during another arc. Remember, Thriller bark wasn't really focused around Brook, Brook only appeared at the beginning and at the end. His real development came after the arc, during the party.. That's something around those line that I'm waiting for Carrot.. maybe at the end of Elbaf or whatever arc there is between now and the end.

 

[Pot Goblin]

Very interesting answer. This is the kind of answer from pro Carrot argument that is needed to support her possibility of joining the crew. Although I must admit that IMHO I still pretty much don’t find the satisfying answer.

You explained that Carrot’s case was special because her arc (which is WCI) is also an abnormal/pretty much a special arc. So that means that every single point needed for a Straw Hat, sort of having “slight twist” because of WCI as a unique arc.

And with the 3 main points needed for a potential nakama, you explained that there is sort of slight twist. I guess I have to explain with my POV:

1. You explained that this time it’s the other way around. In my opinion, Carrot is interested to join the rescue mission because later it was revealed that she wanted to go out to the sea. She thought that “sea is a wonderland”, and that she brought some items on her own because she thought it would be a short trip; which basically means after the rescue mission, she would be back to Zou. IMHO if the ones who came to Zou weren’t SHs, Carrot would still very much tag along.
2. Regarding the main villain: yes, Luffy pretty much was regarded “victorious” without defeating Big Mom. But another thing need to be noted is that again; that every single Straw Hat had their own big bad villain of the arc that needs to be “defeated”. Each of the Straw Hat also somehow connected to the big bad villain, and each potential Straw Hat somehow helped the current Straw Hat to defeat the main villain. IMHO Carrot knows nothing about Big Mom. She doesn’t even know how dangerous Big Mom is, because as point number 1 above, she thought that the rescue mission is like a short way trip and for fun purpose.
3. The terrible past point IMHO still stands the same: that it needs to happen in the past; especially during their younger selves. Carrot’s “terrible past” which happens in the present, I don’t think that counts. Even if we want to think it counts, then let’s conclude with the questions regarding your points:

- Why Oda needed to make “slight twist” while he has been doing it the same way for every single Straw Hat? Oda even gave Robin her terrible past with Enies Lobby to fulfill the exact same pattern, but that was the time when Oda still had much time. If Carrot is really a potential nakama, why Oda didn’t give her everything like every single Straw Hat has? Oda should have put effort and followed the same pattern he did for every single Straw Hat if Carrot is really a potential nakama, without needing a twist. Instead if Carrot is really a potential nakama, Oda could’ve given what Yamato has currently (personal conflict, main villain, terrible past) to Carrot instead of creating Yamato, right? Why only Carrot that doesn’t need to follow the pattern, with what you say: slight twist?
- Is there any real connection why Oda put WCI as “unique” arc which favors Carrot joining?

Sorry, but I still don’t get the need for Oda to make slight twists while he’s been doing the same pattern over and over again. I forgot to ask you this, but for future development, we can see that Carrot needs to depend on Sulong form. What do you think about her needing to depend on Sulong form? We all know that the endgame will be between World Government and/or Blackbeard Pirates. Imagine if Blackbeard using his dark power to cover the moon.

I must admit back then Carrot was one of the strongest potential nakamas; but everything changes when Yamato appears. Everything that should’ve been what Carrot has, are given to Yamato. Yamato doesn’t need “slight twist” for her points to make her join the crew; Yamato even has Zoan DF which is stronger, doesn’t need full moon to be activated, and also pretty much doesn’t drain her strength that much. She has it all without the twist. So again goes back to the main question I put above.

Well, when you put it that way...

Real talk though, I think I'm going to take the L on the 3 main points for now :cheers: partially because I would like to move on to other topics and partially because I'm not feeling motivated to look through WCI and Wano to look for answers as of right now. And mostly because I may not be able to find a proper answer until Carrot makes another move in Wano, and that's something that seems dubious at best right now. If Carrot starts having a conflict with the BMI pirates on Wano then I'll bring this argument back and try to close the loop properly. If I can do that then I feel like I could also give a real connection on why exactly Oda made her pattern unique to other Straw Hats, to justify why Oda would give her a "slight twist". But we'll have to see if Carrot even gets a chance to interact with the BMI pirates.

I can however give my opinion on future developments, though I will preface by saying that it's only a theory right now. I'm not sure of the specifics but what Carrot would have to do to not be a hindrance to the crew is to get a power-up that sheds the disadvantages of Sulong. It's a lot like how Nami's disadvantage with her stick in Alabasta turned into an advantage when she received the Clima Tact.

I actually touched on this before but I can see this power-up happening in Wano due to a potential Rule of 3 situation. And two potential connectors with all of them being Sulong's luck-based downside and Perospero. The pages you see here come from chapters 1006, 1026, and 1027.

http://imgur.com/a/lbQKIIv

1st page is the first point in the rule of 3. Carrot and Wanda are doing fine against Perospero but luck is against them and they lose their Sulong, resulting in their loss. I will label this as Carrot's Ruin. Two other important keys here are that Perospero personally humiliates her about the fight and Pedro in general and that we see Pedro telling Carrot to "keep moving forward." It's also important to note that Wanda has nothing to do with this scene, all the focus is on Carrot.

2nd page is the second point in the rule of 3 when the luck-based downside of Sulong is reinforced, Nekomamushi is about to lose exactly as Carrot did. But on the 3rd page, the moon comes back out just in time allowing Nekomamushi to barely scrape out a win against Perospero. This is an example of what you meant when you mentioned Blackbeard. To control the moon is to control the battle, even someone stronger as Nekomamushi can easily lose a fight if luck is not on his side. It is important to note that Carrot is witnessing this happening in front of her.

5th page is the aftermath of Nekomamushi's battle with Perospero, Carrot gleefully hugs him while Nekomamushi says that she needs to be careful she doesn't turn Sulong. In my opinion that is a reminder to the audience that Carrot is not down and out just yet, she can still fight. I will label this as Carrot's Recovery. Once again, there is only focus on Carrot with no consideration of Wanda's presence.

Now there's only one more point that needs to be discovered which would potentially have something with overcoming Sulong and eventually lead to what I would call Carrot's Redemption. What follows is pure theory with no confirmation so take what I say here with a grain of salt. As for how it will involve Perospero, I would say that it will not be in a 1v1 combat role but more of a Spandam type shit talker/commander role considering his injuries. I'm not quite sure how it will happen if it's even possible, but I see a situation where Perospero regroups with the BMI pirates and causes trouble. Which would lead to Carrot's redeeming moment and finally tie the loop on WCI.



And then I wake up...


I will say though that all of my arguments about Carrot are not ones that would have her join over Yamato, I've been making arguments trying to justify why she could potentially join alongside Yamato. @jordin put it perfectly in their response to my earlier message. If it's 1 on 1, bet on Yamato. I have some potential talking points about her, but I'm not here trying to prove that Carrot is somehow going to beat out Yamato given the current circumstances. I'm not sure if it changes much, but just know that my focus here is almost completely on Carrot.

 

[Logiko]

I knew you'd bring up Viv and Robin despite all the arguments against it.

So Vivi-Robin=Yamato-Carrot. I thought good story telling is subverting expectations, but Oda will the exact same thing he's supposedly done before?

Not really. Yamato is not really pushed as a strawhat. Oda is mainly using the hype and the narration to push the aura of Yamato, only the fans make the connection "yamato is shining = Yamato next mugiwara" All Oda needed to do is make Yamato say that she wanted to sail with Luffy. Ironically, that would be the first time a mugiwara say that before joining the crew so in a way, that would also make Yamato "special".

If something is likely to work, why not use it multiple time ? Oda often use tricks multiple time, and they always work. That would be the same here.

Vivi was a princess with duties to her kingdom. Her duties were mentioned repeatedly throughout the saga and at the very end, was given a choice to either stay or leave. She obviously choose to stay which wasn't surprising. Yamato always wanted to leave Wano which was her prison and at the end of the arc she will have a choice of either staying in her prison or achieving her dream?

Maybe not surprising for you, but I remember at the time (when I was a kid) it did surprise me.. even tho if we were in the context we are now.. we would not be surprising at all.. it's all a matter of context.

Take Carrot for example.. if you look at what the fanbase here is talking about.. the recrutment of Carrot instead of Yamato will be a BIG surprise for most of you. Even tho I have theorized it and even tho you were warn about it.

Wano is not Yamato's prison. Her Dad was (and still is in a way). This difference is very important as the Saga of the emperor is mostly a reflexion around family, parenthood, and it's effects.

Robin was a villain. She had no real positive interaction with the SHs aside from Luffy saving her which is why the swerve worked. She was also directly connected to a major point in the series. In hindsight, we know that she was foreshadowed and planned way ahead. Noy only Carrot doesn't have any foreshadowing along with no SH concept art, she is very popular and many bank on her being a SH. How can you swerve people like that?

Correction, Robin was, in narrative term, a false adversary. You can go all the way back to chapter 114 ("the road") and you will see that Robin's interactions with the crew were not constructed as negative. In fact I'm sure that if we ask Oda about the eternal pose given by Robin to Luffy, Oda would reply that this was an actual Eternal pose and not a trap.

There are three (big) type of antagonist. The false ally (Kanjuro), the adversary (Kaido) and the false adversary (Robin). In most story you can find those three type of antagonist, sometime in multitude. A false adversary, will NEVER be portrayed as someone truly villain or awful (I'm talking about this very point here in my blog to rule out Ceasar and Enel "5. The character must be a friend or a false adversary"). A false adversary that become a true ally must have some sort of redeeming quality or need to have never done something too awful.

This was the case with Robin.

My point is that everything about the future "switch" in favor of the strawhat was setup long before alabasta. And that "switch" needed to be covered under layers of storyline. That why we had two or three chapters before the end of Alabasta, focusing on the relationship of Vivi and the strawhat. And so was created one of the biggest red hearing of the serie.

Yes, Robin was a little bit more included in the story in Alabasta that Carrot in Wano, but that doesn't matter, we had whole cake, so Oda didn't neede anything else.. If carrot is really what he plans for the future of the strawhat.. Oda only need to do one thing to surprise us at the end.. make Carrot look like a background character.. This will allow him to deliver the SAME surprise the readers had when Carrot first embarked on the Sunny after Zo.. but this time with the twist that.. "wait.. so it means that.. SHE is the next strawhat".

Concerning the foreshadowing of Carrot. It's directely in her introduction. There are no better shadowing that what happened on chapter 804 and 805.

 

[Sigran101]

That's mostly a theory right now but mainly:

- The words of Perospero while defeating Carrot. This tells me that somewhere down the line, Carrot will have to face the same challenge and be (this time) victorious
- The fact that Carrot find the geant so amazing.. I have the feeling that what Carrot sees as "amazing" ends up actually very dangerous (the sea/ Whole cake/ The rivers of Wano etc.)
- The fact that carrot has been depicted during WC arc as a SEMI-main character (not fully as a main character but not a background one either), this tells me that Carrot should at least be "rewarded" with at least one victorious duel


I do not think that Carrot's arc will come in the form of a dedicated arc.. we are too close to the end, it would be a miracle. Nah.. I think this will look like more like a storyline during another arc. Remember, Thriller bark wasn't really focused around Brook, Brook only appeared at the beginning and at the end. His real development came after the arc, during the party.. That's something around those line that I'm waiting for Carrot.. maybe at the end of Elbaf or whatever arc there is between now and the end.

While I understand your argument, I don't think it holds up well to scrutiny. Carrot can face a new challenge in a single chapter (or half a chapter) and not have it be a major deal. She can drop in to rescue a weakened strawhat in the end of a chapter, thus proving herself, and then not have the fight shown on panel, and it would fulifil the setup from perospero. That would be a super anticlimactic and dissapointing way to do it, but I was hoping for her to get a big 1v1 against peros, and that didn't happen either.

As far as the giants, sure it's possible she could be involved in Elbaf, especially if Big Mom is there (although that looks doubtful now), but this is based on a single line of dialougue that was said in the middle of an important conversation about other things. It's not like Ussop's comments about the giants. It could easily have simply been a flavor thing, continuing to showcase Carrot's sense of wonder. I bet she would have said the same thing about mermaids if they were mentioned.

This all seems like speculation. Could it happen? Sure, it's possible. But it's not a strong enough basis to form an argument on imo.

As far as thriller bark, I disagree. The entire reason they went there was to recover Brook's shadow so he could join the crew, and the moments he was present were some of the most important parts of the arc. He may not have been a constant presence, but he was definitely important.

 

[Logiko]

While I understand your argument, I don't think it holds up well to scrutiny. Carrot can face a new challenge in a single chapter (or half a chapter) and not have it be a major deal. She can drop in to rescue a weakened strawhat in the end of a chapter, thus proving herself, and then not have the fight shown on panel, and it would fulifil the setup from perospero. That would be a super anticlimactic and dissapointing way to do it, but I was hoping for her to get a big 1v1 against peros, and that didn't happen either.

As far as the giants, sure it's possible she could be involved in Elbaf, especially if Big Mom is there (although that looks doubtful now), but this is based on a single line of dialougue that was said in the middle of an important conversation about other things. It's not like Ussop's comments about the giants. It could easily have simply been a flavor thing, continuing to showcase Carrot's sense of wonder. I bet she would have said the same thing about mermaids if they were mentioned.

This all seems like speculation. Could it happen? Sure, it's possible. But it's not a strong enough basis to form an argument on imo.

As far as thriller bark, I disagree. The entire reason they went there was to recover Brook's shadow so he could join the crew, and the moments he was present were some of the most important parts of the arc. He may not have been a constant presence, but he was definitely important.

That's why it's still a little theory. There is too few element to be sure. The only thing I'm sure of, is that Carrot needs at one point or another prove to herself that the words spoken to Perospero are wrong. Now it could take multiple form, and i'm not even sure that Carrot really needs an ennemy.

I did not say that Brook was not important, just that Brook was not the center of the arc like Robin or Nami were during there time. He might have been the trigger, but that's all. Only the last chapters were really brook centered.

That's why I don't think Carrot's really needs to be the center of attention in any arc. But she will have to be the center of attention for at least one chapter or two. And that can be done in so many way it's impossible to really predict how.

Now.. Carrot only needs one things: the will to sneak aboard the Sunny (and even that might already be there). Really, that's all we need right now. The rest might come after, it doesn't matter. Carrot won't be a strawhat yet, but her presence will seal the last place unless she find her true purpose outside Wano, Zou or the Strawhats somehwere else down the line, which would be very unlikely.
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Another thing to note is that...

If Yamato does join the group, she will have lost her "time to shine". Narratively, Yamato is put under such a light that you can be sure that EVEN IF Yamato does jooin the group, she will not have a major role after that. Her time is now. This is proven by her flashbacks and the way she is portrayed as the heroin of the arc.

Narratively, it wouldn't make much sence to have Yamato repeat this role in the next arc. So at best, she will be like Sanji here in Wano.. an important protagonist, but not one that can steer the story.

(I hope, you understand this point)

On the other hand.. Carrot does not have this problem, Carrot didn't shined that much in whole cake, and didn't shined at all in Wano.. so it leave the possibility of Carrot being a HUGE protagonist in the following arc, completely open.

And it would make perfect sence. If Carrot joins, this will be as a stowaway, the next arc will therefore act as a trial.

Now.. I will enter complete hypothesis territory here but bare with me:

I would love to see the dynamic between Usopp and Carrot during a potential Elbaf arc.

Why ?

We know that Carrot and Usopp are going along pretty well because of the two interactions they had on Zou.. Now, if we are on Elbaf next.. we will surely focus on the Wonder of Usopp on the glory of the Giant, this would resonnate pretty well with how Carrot will see the world at that time..

Two mugiwara, wanting to be stronger warriors without fear for the world beyond their reach. I'm just sayin.. it could be cool.

 

[Subakusoso]

That is some really strange attachment to a character like Carrot, that isn't by all means bad but I wouldn't say that have all that much of a charm/coolness. Have you bet your house on this thing?