General & Others The problem with Zkk

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#81
Powerlevel

Zoro right now, in my opinion, is on YC1 level, he might be slightly above King and Katakuri right now, but still in YC1 range and far away of an Yonko. We see the big difference between YC1 und Yonko by comparison of Katakuri and Kaido, specially when we consider how much Power Ups Luffy already needed to fight Kaido. So i cant imagine to kill Kaido would be in any form honourable for Zoro or anyone, if he is (way) stronger than Zoro.
Power level is only an issue for you because you power scale Zoro wrongly the whole time.
So, if you scale him correctly, there is no issue.

Luffy takes always the W

Luffy has always been the one taking down the final opponent, specially in a whole arc. He is also fighting Kaido so long and giving that final blow after to Zoro, just makes no sense to me. Zoro had his big opponent and even if i would claim Zoro to be way stronger then King, i know he had his fight already, while Luffy is in his. After all, Luffy is the MC and will take the main credit, doesn’t matter how much we like Zoro, Sanji, Kid, Law etc..
Another fundamentally wrong approach.
Luffy isnt the one who always takes down the final opponent - Zoro literally took out the main villain in his introduction and protected the crew from the biggest threat in Thriller Bark.

Giving Zoro the final blow on Kaido makes perfect sense because the victor of Luffy vs Kaido has already been declared Kaido.
Zoro already had his fight? This is not the first time for Zoro to have multiple fights. He ran a gauntlet in several arcs.
Credit can go to Luffy all the same, after all, it's his crew member who killed Kaido.

Luffy grew so much already...

In this arc, Luffy got already alot of powerups, from advCoA, CoC, fighting style over all, stamina and finally his awakening. He grew so much to get on Kaidos level to beat him, just to have him being overshadowed after that, by Zoro who got his own upgrades, which was used to beat King. Giving the vice-captain suddenly another upgrade to push him above the MC, which got a HUUUUGEEE powerup now just seems to be wrong, storywise.
Luffy was a weak fighter, that's why he grew so much.
And still, he is fighting an exhausted Kaido, not a fresh one.
Zoro was already strong the whole time, he doesnt need much growth.
If you accept the possibility of Oda wanting Zoro as #1 of the universe, it's not wrong at all, storywise.

Out of Character / Loyality

A very big point in my point of view is Zoros character. He is loyal to Luffy, above everything. He gave away his pride to get stronger for Luffy (his claim to Mihawk), he was ready to give everything and even die for Luffy and he respects him as captain. When Luffy wins his fight or claims this is his fight, Zoro wont interfere. And when Luffy already won and decided to let Kaido live (what he always do with his opponents), Zoro would never ignore the decision of his captain and act against this (indirect) orders. Loyality is a big point for Zoro (look at the Sanji-Situation, or the Usopp-Situation), so there is no way, in my opinion, where he throws away his loyality to gather something unhonorable like killing some already beaten enemy.
Too late, loyalty didnt stop Zoro from butting into the Kaido fight.
Zoro does what's necessary and what Luffy cant do. He steps in when Luffy lacks.
Kaido wont be beaten when Zoro returns, Kaido is obviously gonna be fighting after Luffy encounter.

ZKK-Fandom...

Its sad that this is an argument already, but it is. If you state somewhere you don’t like the idea or you argue against it, you will get instantly some insults or claims how stupid your argumentation is or how biased you are. A few really argue with you and disagree, which is fine, but the majority just goes to troll you completely, just because you disagree. This point mainly makes me hate the theory. Not because of the theory itself, but because of the fandom putting this on the table on every damn thread. I understand the Zoro fandom like the theory and discussing it is fine and cool, but it got damn out of the hand and if every second thread is about ZKK in some way, its not fun anymore. Specially when another good theories just get lost. Overall, i would love to see more theories and great theorie-threads about different topics.
The irony of this argument... Zoro fandom has been the laughing stock for last 4 years because they disagreed with opinion of majority.
Most people who talk about ZKK are those who oppose it, you can see each week threads popping up about how ZKK aint happening.
Those who oppose it are deep down knowing it is very likely happening and they are starting to lose their mind realizing that they are the ones who are the true laughing stock of the last 4 years. Blaming ZKK fandom is the only way for them to cope with possible future.
 
#83
Onepiece did really create some of the most Crazy Fanboys in anime history with these zorofans, :suresure:


*they thinks he's better than luffy the main character,
* made a theory which they shove in to people face for years, and when someone dissagrees they call that person obsess. :gokulaugh:
 
#87
Im a huge zoro fan myself but it would make no sense for him standing up again like he did his job in this war. If luffy won’t beat kaido with that powerup it would be hella meaningless building all that plot around nika and the "devils fruit". It would be a protagonist typa shit if he woke up again which fits to shonen but not to oda it would kill off his writing completely. I’m pretty sure that zoro will have a moment when the war is over and he visits ryumas grave, which he asked hyori for im sure something will happen there, like about his heritage or an oni emerging. In another conversation we thought about what if he visits ryumas grave and next to him his wife’s name would maybe contain; roronoa. I think oda is saving this grave for him
 
#88
Which is an animal, not a person. Pretty big difference.
Not a person like the magistrate, but that's the entire point of Kaido being a dragon. I didn't forget the magistrate but this isn't just any antagonist. The premise is beheading a dragon, not just cutting down a man. Even mangaka who are reticent about casualties have less qualms about depicting the death of animals, like the lizard from the beginning of the arc
 
#89
Not a person like the magistrate, but that's the entire point of Kaido being a dragon. It's about beheading a dragon, not just cutting down a man. Even mangaka who are reticent about casualties have less qualms about depicting the death of animals, like the lizard from the beginning of the arc
But Kaido is a person? He’s not going to just not be a person all of a sudden
 
#90
"Kaido has to die because he will just get up and start destroying everything again"

So what a character can't change now? No character development for kaido because zoro fans want zkk? That's sad
 

Pantheos

Heavy Metal
#91
Power level is only an issue for you because you power scale Zoro wrongly the whole time.
So, if you scale him correctly, there is no issue.


Another fundamentally wrong approach.
Luffy isnt the one who always takes down the final opponent - Zoro literally took out the main villain in his introduction and protected the crew from the biggest threat in Thriller Bark.

Giving Zoro the final blow on Kaido makes perfect sense because the victor of Luffy vs Kaido has already been declared Kaido.
Zoro already had his fight? This is not the first time for Zoro to have multiple fights. He ran a gauntlet in several arcs.
Credit can go to Luffy all the same, after all, it's his crew member who killed Kaido.


Luffy was a weak fighter, that's why he grew so much.
And still, he is fighting an exhausted Kaido, not a fresh one.
Zoro was already strong the whole time, he doesnt need much growth.
If you accept the possibility of Oda wanting Zoro as #1 of the universe, it's not wrong at all, storywise.


Too late, loyalty didnt stop Zoro from butting into the Kaido fight.
Zoro does what's necessary and what Luffy cant do. He steps in when Luffy lacks.
Kaido wont be beaten when Zoro returns, Kaido is obviously gonna be fighting after Luffy encounter.


The irony of this argument... Zoro fandom has been the laughing stock for last 4 years because they disagreed with opinion of majority.
Most people who talk about ZKK are those who oppose it, you can see each week threads popping up about how ZKK aint happening.
Those who oppose it are deep down knowing it is very likely happening and they are starting to lose their mind realizing that they are the ones who are the true laughing stock of the last 4 years. Blaming ZKK fandom is the only way for them to cope with possible future.
Sorry Nik, but you are a pretty good example for my issue with the ZKK fandom. I stated several times it is my opinion, but your argument is just "you cant scale correctly" and i would be fundamentaly wrong.

Additionally you come with:
"If you accept the possibility of Oda wanting Zoro as #1 of the universe, it's not wrong at all, storywise."

There is no way for an healthy discussion with people like you, so i dodge these. Not because you are right at all or some point, or wrong at all or some points, but just because you arent ready for a discussion. It goes to a religious level and thats not fun at all. You are not open for arguments and thats the issue.
 
#92
Not directed at anyone in particular, but it is funny how people say "Zoro has done his job already", like who decided that? Who decided that Zoro came to Wano, to stop and defeat King? If that was the whole point, why would him and King not happen at the beginning instead of Zoro going to the roof? If you come with fanservice, why can't you relax and let ZKK happen, cause you know...fanservice? Last I checked Oda never said or even hinted at Zoro being done lol.

But we shall see the fallout of ZKK happening soon enough
 

Pantheos

Heavy Metal
#95
Not directed at anyone in particular, but it is funny how people say "Zoro has done his job already", like who decided that? Who decided that Zoro came to Wano, to stop and defeat King? If that was the whole point, why would him and King not happen at the beginning instead of Zoro going to the roof? If you come with fanservice, why can't you relax and let ZKK happen, cause you know...fanservice? Last I checked Oda never said or even hinted at Zoro being done lol.

But we shall see the fallout of ZKK happening soon enough
Nobody decides that (beside oda), nobody says it as fact (i guess), but it is an opinion. It is also my opinion that Zoros Job is done. Because, again in my opinion, he is in Wano mainly as Vice-Captain of Luffy, so his main job is support Luffy (like in the whole series). Him supporting against Kaido crew is beating King, and he did. So i come to the assumption and opinion that his job is done.
You for sure can have a different opinion.

Maybe we all should realize in these discussions the last months that we share opinions and interpretations here. Nothing more.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#96
Sorry Nik, but you are a pretty good example for my issue with the ZKK fandom. I stated several times it is my opinion, but your argument is just "you cant scale correctly" and i would be fundamentaly wrong.

Additionally you come with:
"If you accept the possibility of Oda wanting Zoro as #1 of the universe, it's not wrong at all, storywise."

There is no way for an healthy discussion with people like you, so i dodge these. Not because you are right at all or some point, or wrong at all or some points, but just because you arent ready for a discussion. It goes to a religious level and thats not fun at all. You are not open for arguments and thats the issue.
The issue will only grow once you see that I have been right the whole time.
There are only two options:
1 - Admitting to being wrong for 4 years.
2 - Coping by blaming the ZKK fandom.
 
#97
The way I see it I see Kaidos defeat taking part twice:

First Luffy is going to throw him onto the flower capital and they’ll all see Kaido unconscious and Kaidos flame clouds will completely disperse causing Onigashima to continue falling

Second Kaidos fruit will awaken like Luffys did but Kaido won’t be able to hold back the mind of the dragon and go berserk.

This is where me and the ZKK group disagree. They believe that in this part Luffy will be finished and Zoro will get the last attack.

However, to me this is just the end of Moriah in thriller bark all over again. While the people of the flower capital run in fear, the Straw Hats will say Luffys already won and then they will see the nine shadows (nine straw hats) finish this haki less beast with a brilliant dawn (Luffy) coming in and knocking him out of Wano with one base CoC punch that’ll knock him likely to the bottom of the waterfall where since Kaidos fruit is the fish fish fruit he’ll be able to breathe but unable to move (like Jack end of Zou) and it’ll mirror the story of the fish climbing a waterfall and becoming a dragon.
 

Pantheos

Heavy Metal
#98
The issue will only grow once you see that I have been right the whole time.
There are only two options:
1 - Admitting to being wrong for 4 years.
2 - Coping by blaming the ZKK fandom.
I explain again. In my opinion, ZKK doesnt make sense, my arguments are above.
If ZKK happens, i will be wrong. Happens, nobody really cares. But we share opinions here, nothing more. People like you need to learn that, it would help alot against this toxicness between fandoms.
 
#99
Nobody decides that (beside oda), nobody says it as fact (i guess), but it is an opinion. It is also my opinion that Zoros Job is done. Because, again in my opinion, he is in Wano mainly as Vice-Captain of Luffy, so his main job is support Luffy (like in the whole series). Him supporting against Kaido crew is beating King, and he did. So i come to the assumption and opinion that his job is done.
You for sure can have a different opinion.

Maybe we all should realize in these discussions the last months that we share opinions and interpretations here. Nothing more.
And somehow he can't support Luffy by killing Kaido why? Is luffy gonna turn around all angry like "Zoro Kaido is mine to beat because you're my no.2 and I'm the captain."? Zoro did well supporting Luffy on the roof against Kaido, and saved his life a few times to. No reason why he couldn't support him again in my opinion. Him supporting luffy was to kill Kaido and nothing about fighting King, that only happened cause of necessity. That's cool, Zoro not fulfilling his goals so far, brought me to the assumption that he ain't done yet, but will be soon enough.

Maybe you might share an opinion, fair enough. Your counterparts? Not so much
 
Hey,



i can tell you at least what my problems with ZKK are. You and some people may disagree, but thats fine, its just my opinion. Also, the arguments have no ranking or order.



Powerlevel

Zoro right now, in my opinion, is on YC1 level, he might be slightly above King and Katakuri right now, but still in YC1 range and far away of an Yonko. We see the big difference between YC1 und Yonko by comparison of Katakuri and Kaido, specially when we consider how much Power Ups Luffy already needed to fight Kaido. So i cant imagine to kill Kaido would be in any form honourable for Zoro or anyone, if he is (way) stronger than Zoro.



Luffy takes always the W

Luffy has always been the one taking down the final opponent, specially in a whole arc. He is also fighting Kaido so long and giving that final blow after to Zoro, just makes no sense to me. Zoro had his big opponent and even if i would claim Zoro to be way stronger then King, i know he had his fight already, while Luffy is in his. After all, Luffy is the MC and will take the main credit, doesn’t matter how much we like Zoro, Sanji, Kid, Law etc..



Luffy grew so much already...

In this arc, Luffy got already alot of powerups, from advCoA, CoC, fighting style over all, stamina and finally his awakening. He grew so much to get on Kaidos level to beat him, just to have him being overshadowed after that, by Zoro who got his own upgrades, which was used to beat King. Giving the vice-captain suddenly another upgrade to push him above the MC, which got a HUUUUGEEE powerup now just seems to be wrong, storywise.



Out of Character / Loyality

A very big point in my point of view is Zoros character. He is loyal to Luffy, above everything. He gave away his pride to get stronger for Luffy (his claim to Mihawk), he was ready to give everything and even die for Luffy and he respects him as captain. When Luffy wins his fight or claims this is his fight, Zoro wont interfere. And when Luffy already won and decided to let Kaido live (what he always do with his opponents), Zoro would never ignore the decision of his captain and act against this (indirect) orders. Loyality is a big point for Zoro (look at the Sanji-Situation, or the Usopp-Situation), so there is no way, in my opinion, where he throws away his loyality to gather something unhonorable like killing some already beaten enemy.



ZKK-Fandom...

Its sad that this is an argument already, but it is. If you state somewhere you don’t like the idea or you argue against it, you will get instantly some insults or claims how stupid your argumentation is or how biased you are. A few really argue with you and disagree, which is fine, but the majority just goes to troll you completely, just because you disagree. This point mainly makes me hate the theory. Not because of the theory itself, but because of the fandom putting this on the table on every damn thread. I understand the Zoro fandom like the theory and discussing it is fine and cool, but it got damn out of the hand and if every second thread is about ZKK in some way, its not fun anymore. Specially when another good theories just get lost. Overall, i would love to see more theories and great theorie-threads about different topics.


Like i said, you dont need to agree with me, we can discuss these points, but this is my point of view about this topic and it seems you asked for the reasons. :)

Gz
Panth
Zoro is a yc 1 but he was the only one to significantly damage kaido, after he took the strongest attack in the series, luffy couldn't do that damage when he was fresh and he couldn't take hakai

Luffy also took the dub against Captain Morgans, and Sanji handled Big Mom so thats false

And Zoro still has his own growth since we've seen him get every power up luffy got yhis arc, plus a black blade and nidai kitetsu

We've never seen Zoro ask permission, he killed the bounty hunters at whiskey peak as well as almost took out Charloss, in fact when luffy couldn't beat a dragon he said Zoro you got this

More non Zoro fans post why it won't happen more than we say it will, and I believe Zorotard was used first so who's fanbase insults whos
 
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