Future Events Why I am not Convinced that Luffy Defeats Kaido
I'd say Naruto.
However, if ZKK happens, I don't expect Zoro to kill an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated Kaido. Most of the narrative setup around ZKK would remain unsatisfied if Zoro kills a Kaido that has already been defeated:
The scenario I find most appealing is the one @Garp the Fist presented: Luffy overcomes Kaido in hybrid form. Kaido later transforms into a Dragon (perhaps to escape, perhaps to launch one last Boro Breath to destroy the capital) and Zoro kills him then.
I do agree that death is apriori very unlikely in One Piece. My ZKK agenda has mainly been that Zoro will land the final attack that takes Kaido down, and not necessarily that said attack actually ends his life.
However, if ZKK happens, I don't expect Zoro to kill an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated Kaido. Most of the narrative setup around ZKK would remain unsatisfied if Zoro kills a Kaido that has already been defeated:
The scenario I find most appealing is the one @Garp the Fist presented: Luffy overcomes Kaido in hybrid form. Kaido later transforms into a Dragon (perhaps to escape, perhaps to launch one last Boro Breath to destroy the capital) and Zoro kills him then.
I do agree that death is apriori very unlikely in One Piece. My ZKK agenda has mainly been that Zoro will land the final attack that takes Kaido down, and not necessarily that said attack actually ends his life.
What am seeing is Zoro is focusing on protecting Luffy more than he's focused on killing Kaido
protecting Luffy is a major part of his character arc throughout the story, and seeing his performance in the fight it's obvious that's what Oda decided to focus on
also even though Zoro want to kill Kaido, it doesn't mean he will succeed, we don't even know why he want to cut him, it's the first time Zoro actually care about fighting the big bad of the arc, I think in the end it won't matter much to him if he do it or not
Kaido will be killed similar to WB , by multiple characters, including SNs and BB
reminder that Luffy defeating Kaido and accomplishing Ace promise is more important than some line Zoro said to Queen, there's way more build up to Luffy struggle against Kaido compared to Zoro
protecting Luffy is a major part of his character arc throughout the story, and seeing his performance in the fight it's obvious that's what Oda decided to focus on
also even though Zoro want to kill Kaido, it doesn't mean he will succeed, we don't even know why he want to cut him, it's the first time Zoro actually care about fighting the big bad of the arc, I think in the end it won't matter much to him if he do it or not
Kaido will be killed similar to WB , by multiple characters, including SNs and BB
reminder that Luffy defeating Kaido and accomplishing Ace promise is more important than some line Zoro said to Queen, there's way more build up to Luffy struggle against Kaido compared to Zoro
Introduction
I don't have the time to write another full length essay right now (and I would address this at depth in one of my forthcoming essays), so I'm going to be as brief as possible. Considers this a rough sketch of my beliefs, and my attempt at getting the pulse of the community.
I've covered a lot of the supporting arguments in some of my many Zoro vs Kaido essays, so I'll just link them when appropriate.
Why Zoro?
The idea that Luffy would defeat Kaido in a final 1 vs 1 confrontation seems implausible given Zoro's narrative and character arc in Wanokuni. Considering what Zoro has been setup to do, I do not see Zoro being an afterthought in Kaido's defeat.
Against Luffy Defeating Kaido
If Luffy defeats Kaido in a 1 vs 1, then even if Zoro beheads a defeated Kaido, the following cannot be accomplished:
Merely reopening the scar Oden left behind or even giving Kaido a new scar would not accomplish any of the below:
The claim that Luffy defeats Kaido in a 1 vs 1 is a claim that Zoro's character arc in Wano would be denied a suitable payoff.
Aside from that though, Luffy landing the final blow when Zoro and himself face an antagonist by themselves has never happened to the best of my knowledge.
Luffy has landed the final blow in group fights (Pacifista, Oars, etc.), but in fights with him and Zoro, landing the final blow has traditionally fallen to Zoro. I expect that Kaido would be essentially defeated by Luffy and Zoro alone (they have already dealt > 90% of the damage he has received so far), and I expect that to remain true. Mama may also be defeated given CP 0's words, and the other Supernova can handle her.
Expectations for the Final Attack
As for the final attack that defeats Kaido, I think Oda has already shown it to us.
In Chapter 1002, Zoro nearly replicated Ryuma's legend on the Rooftop using a posture and stance that directly mirrored Ryuma's own:
The technique — Hiryuu Kaen — was the same technique that Zoro used to defeat Ryuma:
The attack missed, but perhaps it was simply too early. In order to replicate Ryuma's legend, Zoro would need to perform the feat in front of several witnesses (perhaps he gets another chance when the battle moves to the vicinity of the Flower Capital).
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
Poll
You can NOT change your votes.
Conclusions
If Zoro does not get to fell Kaido with Hiryuu Kaen, then I can see it being a combination attack between Zoro and Luffy. I'm pretty sceptical that Luffy gets to defeat Kaido at the end of a solo battle (I do not expect Zoro to defeat Kaido in a solo battle either).
I realise that I'm doubting that the protagonist of the story would get to surpass and overcome their first Yonkou opponent, and I'm fine with that. There are three other Yonkou that are going to fall apart from Kaido. Luffy does not need to surpass and overcome Kaido at his strongest. Landing the final blow on Kaido is necessary for Zoro to fulfill the Second Ryuma plotline and surpass Oden.
Zoro needs to defeat Kaido more than Luffy does. After Wano, there would never again be another opportunity for him to forge a legend as the Second Coming of Ryuma. Perhaps you think this narrative has no payoff, after all, Zoro failed to round up the samurai and lead them into battle. Perhaps Zoro's character just isn't important enough for Zoro to get his moment of recognition as the Second Ryuma. That's a sensible belief to have, but it's currently a belief I have low credence in.
I don't have the time to write another full length essay right now (and I would address this at depth in one of my forthcoming essays), so I'm going to be as brief as possible. Considers this a rough sketch of my beliefs, and my attempt at getting the pulse of the community.
I've covered a lot of the supporting arguments in some of my many Zoro vs Kaido essays, so I'll just link them when appropriate.
Why Zoro?
The idea that Luffy would defeat Kaido in a final 1 vs 1 confrontation seems implausible given Zoro's narrative and character arc in Wanokuni. Considering what Zoro has been setup to do, I do not see Zoro being an afterthought in Kaido's defeat.
- Zoro's entire character arc in Onigashima was a tale of his desire to confront Kaido in battle
- This culminated in an earth-shattering declaration that he shall cut down Kaido
- Kaido is Zoro's opponent in the Wano Arc
- For those of you who doubt that Kaido is Zoro's opponent this arc, I've written five essays on the topic to help convince you:
- Associated essay
- Zoro inherited Oden's sword Enma and his unfulfilled will to slay Kaido and open Wano's borders
- He is the "monster samurai" bearing Oden's mantle
- Associated essay
- Zoro is going to surpass Oden by accomplishing the tasks he could not:
- Forging Enma Black
- Slaying Kaido
- Associated essay
- Kaido wants to die at the hands of the Monster Samurai bearing Oden's will.
- Zoro is that samurai.
- Associated essay (by @Garp the Fist)
- Associated essay
- Zoro is going to replicate Ryuma's legend of Slaying a Dragon over the Flower Capital, and leave Wano recognised as the Second Ryuma.
- Ryuma is the "God of the Blade" and a national treasure of Wano
-
- Associated Essay
- Ryuma is the "God of the Blade" and a national treasure of Wano
Against Luffy Defeating Kaido
If Luffy defeats Kaido in a 1 vs 1, then even if Zoro beheads a defeated Kaido, the following cannot be accomplished:
- Kaido's desire to die at the hands of a monster samurai in battle
- Zoro would have cowardly killed him after he had already been defeated
- Zoro surpassing Oden
- Slaying an already defeated enemy is not surpassing anyone
- Replicating Ryuma's legend
- Slaying an already defeated enemy is no legend
Merely reopening the scar Oden left behind or even giving Kaido a new scar would not accomplish any of the below:
- Kaido's desire to die at the hands of a monster samurai in battle
- Zoro would have failed at killing him
- Zoro surpassing Oden
- Reopening Oden's scar is a feat inferior to Oden's
- A new scar is merely replicating Oden's feat, in no way does Zoro surpass Oden through it
- Replicating Ryuma's legend
- Failing to kill Kaido does not replicate Ryuma's legend
The claim that Luffy defeats Kaido in a 1 vs 1 is a claim that Zoro's character arc in Wano would be denied a suitable payoff.
Aside from that though, Luffy landing the final blow when Zoro and himself face an antagonist by themselves has never happened to the best of my knowledge.
- Captain Morgan
- Zoro landed the final blow that defeated him
- Punk Hazard Dragon
- Zoro beheaded it with a Shi Shishi Sonson
Luffy has landed the final blow in group fights (Pacifista, Oars, etc.), but in fights with him and Zoro, landing the final blow has traditionally fallen to Zoro. I expect that Kaido would be essentially defeated by Luffy and Zoro alone (they have already dealt > 90% of the damage he has received so far), and I expect that to remain true. Mama may also be defeated given CP 0's words, and the other Supernova can handle her.
Expectations for the Final Attack
As for the final attack that defeats Kaido, I think Oda has already shown it to us.
In Chapter 1002, Zoro nearly replicated Ryuma's legend on the Rooftop using a posture and stance that directly mirrored Ryuma's own:
The technique — Hiryuu Kaen — was the same technique that Zoro used to defeat Ryuma:
The attack missed, but perhaps it was simply too early. In order to replicate Ryuma's legend, Zoro would need to perform the feat in front of several witnesses (perhaps he gets another chance when the battle moves to the vicinity of the Flower Capital).
Predictions
The following events would make me update towards Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring to Kaido that he shall cut down/kill/slay/defeat him
- Perhaps this happens when Zoro gets his eponymous chapter
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai on par with Oden
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently a samurai that exceeds Oden
- Kaido expressing the desire to die at Zoro's hands
- Kaido acknowledging that Zoro is currently capable of killing/defeating him
- E.g. "if it's him, he could do it"
The following events would make me update away from Zoro defeating Kaido (roughly in ascending order of "weight"):
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will become the Pirate King
- Zoro leaving the Kaido battle
- For any reason at all
- Luffy declaring that he wants to overcome and surpass Kaido now
- Not in the future, not eventually, something along the lines of his declaration of intent regarding Katakuri.
- E.g. "I want to overcome him, the Emperor known as Kaido, I want to beat him!"
- Zoro declaring that Luffy will surpass/defeat Kaido
- Zoro entrusting Luffy with defeating Kaido
Poll
You can NOT change your votes.
Conclusions
If Zoro does not get to fell Kaido with Hiryuu Kaen, then I can see it being a combination attack between Zoro and Luffy. I'm pretty sceptical that Luffy gets to defeat Kaido at the end of a solo battle (I do not expect Zoro to defeat Kaido in a solo battle either).
I realise that I'm doubting that the protagonist of the story would get to surpass and overcome their first Yonkou opponent, and I'm fine with that. There are three other Yonkou that are going to fall apart from Kaido. Luffy does not need to surpass and overcome Kaido at his strongest. Landing the final blow on Kaido is necessary for Zoro to fulfill the Second Ryuma plotline and surpass Oden.
Zoro needs to defeat Kaido more than Luffy does. After Wano, there would never again be another opportunity for him to forge a legend as the Second Coming of Ryuma. Perhaps you think this narrative has no payoff, after all, Zoro failed to round up the samurai and lead them into battle. Perhaps Zoro's character just isn't important enough for Zoro to get his moment of recognition as the Second Ryuma. That's a sensible belief to have, but it's currently a belief I have low credence in.
~Snip~
Luffy never technically implicated that he will solo Kaido or that they must not return, all he claimed was that he had gotten it. Not to mention that Big Mom is allegedly kicking in again and she will probably not be stopped by those two and if Luffy ended up in danger Zoro would most likely instinctively attempt to salvage his captain.
lol Talk about reaching. When Luffy basically says he'll handle it, He'll handle it. Didn't happened before. Not for a 1v1. Just like with Enel, Sure Luffy was missing but technically that was a 1v many until Luffy entered the fray. Stop trying to bullshit your way. Can't admit what was shown and resort to a petty ass argument.
