Character Discussion Rate Zoro as a Character compared to other Shonen Characters
- Thread starter pg13
- Start date
- Tags capybara>zolo
Because he (and almost all SHs) had very little moments that were interesting in the last 10 years, and as a character, to be a good character, you need to do things that make your personality stand out. And as everyone here brought examples, have not happened in a decade.
Take an example of a 9 or a 10, like Rukawa from Slam Dunk. Every single interaction he has is legitimately unique to him, his character perspire in the way he acts and talks. Every match he has his personal arc, even as "the strong" cool archetype he has plenty of space to grow and show his character.
Then you have SHs that have meaningless panel time of fluff discussions. In Wano, the only place where Zoro has shown character, was rooftop and King's fight, which was not even a swordfight like Kaku or Mr. 1.
Hell, even fight-wise, Zoro had 1 (maybe 2 if Pica is a fight) real fight in the whole New World.
Mine is not an argument against Zoro, but against Oda's treatment of the SHs in general.
Have you read my posts?
Take an example of a 9 or a 10, like Rukawa from Slam Dunk. Every single interaction he has is legitimately unique to him, his character perspire in the way he acts and talks. Every match he has his personal arc, even as "the strong" cool archetype he has plenty of space to grow and show his character.
Then you have SHs that have meaningless panel time of fluff discussions. In Wano, the only place where Zoro has shown character, was rooftop and King's fight, which was not even a swordfight like Kaku or Mr. 1.
Hell, even fight-wise, Zoro had 1 (maybe 2 if Pica is a fight) real fight in the whole New World.
Mine is not an argument against Zoro, but against Oda's treatment of the SHs in general.
Post automatically merged:
Have you read my posts?
Dont weasel your way out of this with petty insults. I am just using your own example =>
- No matter what went down at Wizards, folks still see MJ as the GOAT because of his incredible Bulls performance
Applying the same logic =>
- No matter what happened post-timeskip, we should consider Zoro a 10/10 character based on pre-timeskip writing
Would you dare to say MJ is an average player overall?
- No matter what went down at Wizards, folks still see MJ as the GOAT because of his incredible Bulls performance
Applying the same logic =>
- No matter what happened post-timeskip, we should consider Zoro a 10/10 character based on pre-timeskip writing
Would you dare to say MJ is an average player overall?
Yes, but MJ played at the Wizards 1 year.
Imagine if MJ played half of his career at the bulls, and half a mediocre career at the Wizards.
He would not be considered the GOAT, because half of his career would be a mediocre career.
Zoro spent half of the manga doing almost nothing.
Oh, and sorry for the insult.
Imagine if MJ played half of his career at the bulls, and half a mediocre career at the Wizards.
He would not be considered the GOAT, because half of his career would be a mediocre career.
Zoro spent half of the manga doing almost nothing.
Oh, and sorry for the insult.
Because we had an arc without Zoro (Whole Cake Island) and generally speaking, Oda is not as focused on the strawhats post TS as he was pre TS but about the overall global events and all its participating parties. That doesn't make Zoro mediocre at all. Especially since even with that limited focus on the strawhat pirates, Zoro had some moments to shine.
See, we are aligned on this.
Oda doesn't give time to shine to the SHs, and as such, they cannot get to be "great" character, like people here saying "Arguably the best in shonen". How can a character that has no focus be the best in the medium, come on.
If I were to say that Usopp went from a great character to a bad character, would you guys disagree? Would you guys say that Usopp is still a great character like the Enies Lobby version?
I don't think it's fair to judge a character only for its highs, but also for the lows, and for the impact that it has on the story.
And Zoro's, Brook's, Franky's and others impact that they had on the story, in the last 10 years, is mediocre.
Oda doesn't give time to shine to the SHs, and as such, they cannot get to be "great" character, like people here saying "Arguably the best in shonen". How can a character that has no focus be the best in the medium, come on.
If I were to say that Usopp went from a great character to a bad character, would you guys disagree? Would you guys say that Usopp is still a great character like the Enies Lobby version?
I don't think it's fair to judge a character only for its highs, but also for the lows, and for the impact that it has on the story.
And Zoro's, Brook's, Franky's and others impact that they had on the story, in the last 10 years, is mediocre.
Doesn't matter that Zoro has enstablished what kind of character he is, character should still have arcs, show growth, show something.
Zoro in post TS has shown nothing that we didn't know about him.
Had 0 moments about his character, he only fought.
Think about the GREAT Zoro moments:
Even Hakai is like a bad version of Nothing Happened, is just the flair without the substance. Stopping hakai shows that Zoro is strong, while Nothing happened shows that he is strong AND that he is ready to die to protect Luffy's dream.
Zoro in post TS has shown nothing that we didn't know about him.
Had 0 moments about his character, he only fought.
Think about the GREAT Zoro moments:
- Losing with Mihawk
- Almost dying with Arlong and MR.1
- Nothing Happened
- Bowing to Mihawk
Even Hakai is like a bad version of Nothing Happened, is just the flair without the substance. Stopping hakai shows that Zoro is strong, while Nothing happened shows that he is strong AND that he is ready to die to protect Luffy's dream.
I havenāt read Shonen in a long time. So I can only compare to Old Shonen.
And really the only metric for a good character imo is how much people want to see them onscreen/on panelā¦ this is different from how much they actually Are on panel and different from how much they SHOULD be on panel
and unfortunately Zoro gets a 5/10 and the rest of the strawhats range from 3-5 as well
I genuinely donāt like the strawhats and donāt like seeing them on panel majority of the time so this where weāre at.
most of the strawhats, including Zoro, never have anything interesting to say, never do anything interesting on panel, never have interesting stories, arenāt designed or drawn that interestingly, donāt have interesting fights. They all mostly feel like NPCs in the background of video games reacting plainly to the plot around them.
Luffy is the only one who rises above the rest because HE IS the plot itself. He has all the above qualities but with the advantage of being the point of the story so it seems like Luffy is important and a good character but itās simply because he IS THE STORY basically.
its so sad for me at least how little the main characters of a story like this can contribute to my interest in it.
Its honestly astounding how One Piece can be written in this manner that my attention is on anything but the main characters
And really the only metric for a good character imo is how much people want to see them onscreen/on panelā¦ this is different from how much they actually Are on panel and different from how much they SHOULD be on panel
and unfortunately Zoro gets a 5/10 and the rest of the strawhats range from 3-5 as well
I genuinely donāt like the strawhats and donāt like seeing them on panel majority of the time so this where weāre at.
most of the strawhats, including Zoro, never have anything interesting to say, never do anything interesting on panel, never have interesting stories, arenāt designed or drawn that interestingly, donāt have interesting fights. They all mostly feel like NPCs in the background of video games reacting plainly to the plot around them.
Luffy is the only one who rises above the rest because HE IS the plot itself. He has all the above qualities but with the advantage of being the point of the story so it seems like Luffy is important and a good character but itās simply because he IS THE STORY basically.
its so sad for me at least how little the main characters of a story like this can contribute to my interest in it.
Its honestly astounding how One Piece can be written in this manner that my attention is on anything but the main characters
I feel like people who say Zoro has no character development or lacking impactful character moments post TS donāt understand the King fight at all.
From Thriller Bark to the majority of the TS Zoro has been putting Luffy on a pedestal while having his dream on the sidelines; essentially being the best knight possible. It wasnāt until Zoro understood Enmaās requirements to not restrain himself and acknowledge his dream as kingly that he puts his dream on par with Luffyās.
At that point he understands that one canāt be done without the other. Thatās why Zoro becoming a conqueror and acknowledging his promises to both Kuina and Luffy was so impactful. From knight to a king.
Also the concept of death that follows Zoro is wrapped up well. From Kuinaās death, to Zoro being branded as a demon by others and dismissing it, to Zoro fighting a fallen angel in King, fighting the grim reaper and becoming the King of Hell. Claiming rule over a domain that took the life of his best friend and understanding that this is what it takes to fulfill his goals.
This video breaks down it very well imo:
From Thriller Bark to the majority of the TS Zoro has been putting Luffy on a pedestal while having his dream on the sidelines; essentially being the best knight possible. It wasnāt until Zoro understood Enmaās requirements to not restrain himself and acknowledge his dream as kingly that he puts his dream on par with Luffyās.
At that point he understands that one canāt be done without the other. Thatās why Zoro becoming a conqueror and acknowledging his promises to both Kuina and Luffy was so impactful. From knight to a king.
Also the concept of death that follows Zoro is wrapped up well. From Kuinaās death, to Zoro being branded as a demon by others and dismissing it, to Zoro fighting a fallen angel in King, fighting the grim reaper and becoming the King of Hell. Claiming rule over a domain that took the life of his best friend and understanding that this is what it takes to fulfill his goals.
This video breaks down it very well imo:
A lot of the stuff that you are saying is non-canon symbolism, like the fallen angel (?). I understand you would like those things to happen, but nowhere Oda has ever expanded on that. It is, at most, a reference to esoterism.
And again, King's fight I said from the start was Zoro's only moment in the whole post TS.
Not much. Almost nothing, for 10 years of content.
And again, King's fight I said from the start was Zoro's only moment in the whole post TS.
Not much. Almost nothing, for 10 years of content.
I donāt think this is it
as an example, Zoro had the second most āstory focusā in Wano outside of Luffy and yet he ended up just as uninteresting to follow on panel
like I donāt think simply being on panel makes you interesting. Luffy has the most panel time basically in the whole story yet heās never been my favorite character, even Pre time skipā¦ but pre time skip, Luffy had that one great Character trait āyou always wanted to see what random thing he would do nextā
this is a character trait Luffy lost. He no longer has that thing that made him so interesting. It was instead replaced with the Nika fruit that the author has to TELL US is the most random whacky fruit everā¦ instead of it simply being that Luffy himself does random whacky thingsā¦ we have to wait for his df to awaken and choose the random whacky things he can do, for the limited time it can exist
So Luffy can maintain having the most panel time in the story as he does now and yet not be interesting to see on Panel
and Zoro is worse because the thing that he had pre time skip that kept interest was grit. You always wanted to see what Zoroās fight was gonna be and what obstacle, whether physical or emotional (yes Zoro had emotional turmoil pre time skip such as the Usopp situation that he himself admitted also affected him) he was gonna overcomeā¦
Zoro always seemed like his grittiness was antithetical to the one piece story itselfā¦ Like he is the only person who recognizes this isnāt a happy go lucky story and that the crew HAS TO BE AN ACTUAL CREW to workā¦ I watched this part of the story when I was 13 years old and I legit was almost caught off guardā¦ Itās like Zoro was in another anime or somethingā¦
even stuff like Zoro being the only character to carry over damage from arc to arc was oddā¦ Zoro was damaged from Baratie to Arlong park, he was scarred on his chest permanently, he cut his legs in Drum island, he had those legs scars permanently, he got fucked up in thriller bark, he was bandages for the rest of pre time skipā¦ This is pure gritā¦ the story treated the things Zoro said and did and felt almost like more seriously than anyone else
all this happened while Zoro did not have the most panel time. He was simply a side character but he had specific things about him that were interesting in the little time he had on panel
and of course as You can guess, all this was lost post time skipā¦ no more grit, on top of having even less panel timeā¦
Even when heās given the most panel time heās ever had in an arc in Wano, even more than pre time skip arcs, he just walks around getting into meaningless scuffles, loses his sword unceremoniously and gains a new sword, equally unceremoniously.
Gets meaningless feats on the rooftop and a badly written fight with King.
The arc ends with him fully healed. His meeting with the grim reaper doesnāt matter. He no longer sustains injuries from arc to arc. No scars from his toughest fight yet.
He gets CoC without any character development even though every single other character who unlocks CoC does it alongside meaningful character arcs.
He promised to avenge yasu, he didnāt. He made no impressions on the people of Wano despite being randomly stated to be related to them. He says he wanted to visit ryumaās grave, he didnt. He never gets to use Nidai Kitetsu after repeatedly saying he wants to.
Heās a literal afterthought whose words and actions and ambitions donāt matter.
this is what I mean by, there is nothing interesting about the strawhatsā¦ There is nothing they do on panel thatās worth any further thought or provide any entertainment
as an example, Zoro had the second most āstory focusā in Wano outside of Luffy and yet he ended up just as uninteresting to follow on panel
like I donāt think simply being on panel makes you interesting. Luffy has the most panel time basically in the whole story yet heās never been my favorite character, even Pre time skipā¦ but pre time skip, Luffy had that one great Character trait āyou always wanted to see what random thing he would do nextā
this is a character trait Luffy lost. He no longer has that thing that made him so interesting. It was instead replaced with the Nika fruit that the author has to TELL US is the most random whacky fruit everā¦ instead of it simply being that Luffy himself does random whacky thingsā¦ we have to wait for his df to awaken and choose the random whacky things he can do, for the limited time it can exist
So Luffy can maintain having the most panel time in the story as he does now and yet not be interesting to see on Panel
and Zoro is worse because the thing that he had pre time skip that kept interest was grit. You always wanted to see what Zoroās fight was gonna be and what obstacle, whether physical or emotional (yes Zoro had emotional turmoil pre time skip such as the Usopp situation that he himself admitted also affected him) he was gonna overcomeā¦
Zoro always seemed like his grittiness was antithetical to the one piece story itselfā¦ Like he is the only person who recognizes this isnāt a happy go lucky story and that the crew HAS TO BE AN ACTUAL CREW to workā¦ I watched this part of the story when I was 13 years old and I legit was almost caught off guardā¦ Itās like Zoro was in another anime or somethingā¦
even stuff like Zoro being the only character to carry over damage from arc to arc was oddā¦ Zoro was damaged from Baratie to Arlong park, he was scarred on his chest permanently, he cut his legs in Drum island, he had those legs scars permanently, he got fucked up in thriller bark, he was bandages for the rest of pre time skipā¦ This is pure gritā¦ the story treated the things Zoro said and did and felt almost like more seriously than anyone else
all this happened while Zoro did not have the most panel time. He was simply a side character but he had specific things about him that were interesting in the little time he had on panel
and of course as You can guess, all this was lost post time skipā¦ no more grit, on top of having even less panel timeā¦
Even when heās given the most panel time heās ever had in an arc in Wano, even more than pre time skip arcs, he just walks around getting into meaningless scuffles, loses his sword unceremoniously and gains a new sword, equally unceremoniously.
Gets meaningless feats on the rooftop and a badly written fight with King.
The arc ends with him fully healed. His meeting with the grim reaper doesnāt matter. He no longer sustains injuries from arc to arc. No scars from his toughest fight yet.
He gets CoC without any character development even though every single other character who unlocks CoC does it alongside meaningful character arcs.
He promised to avenge yasu, he didnāt. He made no impressions on the people of Wano despite being randomly stated to be related to them. He says he wanted to visit ryumaās grave, he didnt. He never gets to use Nidai Kitetsu after repeatedly saying he wants to.
Heās a literal afterthought whose words and actions and ambitions donāt matter.
this is what I mean by, there is nothing interesting about the strawhatsā¦ There is nothing they do on panel thatās worth any further thought or provide any entertainment
Last edited:
Good point, but MJ played 2 seasons in Wizards (60 and 82 games) and were all stars in both. In addition, when we talk about MJ's peak at Bulls, we count six years. We dont count the years before Scottie joined Bulls, we dont also count his comeback year from first retirement in 95.
If you count MJ's peak 6 years vs Wizards 2 years, then its a fair comparison because Zoro was also absent from the manga for a long time after the timeskip, doesnt get as much panel time as pre-timeskip and the manga is not done yet!
If you count MJ's peak 6 years vs Wizards 2 years, then its a fair comparison because Zoro was also absent from the manga for a long time after the timeskip, doesnt get as much panel time as pre-timeskip and the manga is not done yet!