General & Others How would you make Zoro a better character?
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What do you mean by "fleshed out in character" and "fleshed out in strength"?
Do you mean we don't know Zoro's character and we know Zoro's strength?
Are you sure about this? You know Zoro's strength? And you don't know Zoro's character? You don't know why he does things and reasons he makes decisions?
Give some examples of Zoro doing things and acting in ways that aren't explained by his character because all you typed out are explained in context. The Ryuunosuke thing in context was written as a gag. The crew OVERREACTED in one way and the gag is enhanced by Zoro and law overreacting the other way. The contrast makes it funny. All your examples are seemingly you getting things out of context or wanting Zoro to not have matured post time skip?
Things like Zoro's post time skip reaction to Tashigi compared to his pre time skip reaction... You want that after 500 chapters Zoro hasn't grown and he should fumble up around her since he hasn't matured one bit. Him not fawning over random silly things is supposed to make him a different person from everyone else as people are different. Pre time skip the gag was that Zoro slept through the supposed exciting moments dgut you can't expect that gag to work now that Zoro has been presented as a grown up and chastises Luffy for not taking things seriously yet he supposedly sleeps through everything
I mean if your problem is that Zoro actually developed as a character then say so. But saying that he isn't "fleshed out" is ridiculous. That's you saying he isn't characterised at all and is doing things at random with no explanation
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Are miscontruing lack of personality with lack of goofiness?
Does Robin lack personality because she's not goofy? I thought having a personality is having a defined set of attributes that make you stand out as an individual in a situation?
You mean you can't imagine a situation where Zoro has a unique reaction from everyone else in the crew? Because that's what "lacking personality" means. It doesn't mean Zoro has to have the stock standard whacky reactions to things as everyone else.
Do you mean we don't know Zoro's character and we know Zoro's strength?
Are you sure about this? You know Zoro's strength? And you don't know Zoro's character? You don't know why he does things and reasons he makes decisions?
Give some examples of Zoro doing things and acting in ways that aren't explained by his character because all you typed out are explained in context. The Ryuunosuke thing in context was written as a gag. The crew OVERREACTED in one way and the gag is enhanced by Zoro and law overreacting the other way. The contrast makes it funny. All your examples are seemingly you getting things out of context or wanting Zoro to not have matured post time skip?
Things like Zoro's post time skip reaction to Tashigi compared to his pre time skip reaction... You want that after 500 chapters Zoro hasn't grown and he should fumble up around her since he hasn't matured one bit. Him not fawning over random silly things is supposed to make him a different person from everyone else as people are different. Pre time skip the gag was that Zoro slept through the supposed exciting moments dgut you can't expect that gag to work now that Zoro has been presented as a grown up and chastises Luffy for not taking things seriously yet he supposedly sleeps through everything
I mean if your problem is that Zoro actually developed as a character then say so. But saying that he isn't "fleshed out" is ridiculous. That's you saying he isn't characterised at all and is doing things at random with no explanation
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Are miscontruing lack of personality with lack of goofiness?
Does Robin lack personality because she's not goofy? I thought having a personality is having a defined set of attributes that make you stand out as an individual in a situation?
You mean you can't imagine a situation where Zoro has a unique reaction from everyone else in the crew? Because that's what "lacking personality" means. It doesn't mean Zoro has to have the stock standard whacky reactions to things as everyone else.
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So, basically what you're suggesting is that a "grown up" person and someone who has "matured" is soemone who is "NOT AFFECTED by joyful, scary, and other aspect of adventurous life."
alright, see it as you please... I'm not going to argue about characterization when we both have DIFFERENT VIEWS fundamentally about what "maturity and growing up" supposed to mean.
alright, see it as you please... I'm not going to argue about characterization when we both have DIFFERENT VIEWS fundamentally about what "maturity and growing up" supposed to mean.
You basically listed things what Luffy and Sanji fandom want from Zoro fandom, lol.
Acknowledgement of Luffy's superiority and Sanji's rivalry, however, none of those are happening, not in the fandom and not in the manga. Wishful thinking mate, as if a warrior like Zoro would ever consider something superior to him while wanting to be the best.
Acknowledgement of Luffy's superiority and Sanji's rivalry, however, none of those are happening, not in the fandom and not in the manga. Wishful thinking mate, as if a warrior like Zoro would ever consider something superior to him while wanting to be the best.
What are you talking about? Seriously what is this?
The word I used btw is battle monger. As a person who actively seeks out fights and challenges and such... Both Luffy and Zoro are the only straw has who are battlemongers... That's why when everyone is complaining to Luffy to not fight fujitora, Zoro's the only person who wants to fight fujitora too
This immediately puts him on such a similar wavelength as Luffy that he can't get exhausted of Luffy's willingness to fight everyone. That's why everyone was complaining about that situation besides Zoro.
Zoro isn't supposed to get tired of Luffy Since they are too similar for that to happen. Zoro would have to be a different character to get exhausted of Luffy's recklessness
The word I used btw is battle monger. As a person who actively seeks out fights and challenges and such... Both Luffy and Zoro are the only straw has who are battlemongers... That's why when everyone is complaining to Luffy to not fight fujitora, Zoro's the only person who wants to fight fujitora too
This immediately puts him on such a similar wavelength as Luffy that he can't get exhausted of Luffy's willingness to fight everyone. That's why everyone was complaining about that situation besides Zoro.
Zoro isn't supposed to get tired of Luffy Since they are too similar for that to happen. Zoro would have to be a different character to get exhausted of Luffy's recklessness
that's a wishful thinking too i guess, but i doesn't change that it would give "the warrior" more character depth. Powerlevel-wise, Zoro should recognize his own place and he also should recognize Luffy's place as well. Because if he doesn't, it wouldn't match his support and sacrifice moments for Luffy like in Thriller Bark arc. Even if he doesn't speak of it blatantly, he shouldn't at least recognize it to further explore his character concept.
And i also stated many things other than powerlevel and badassery aspect.
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you didn't understand the difference between Nami getting tired and what i posted about?
And i also stated many things other than powerlevel and badassery aspect.
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you didn't understand the difference between Nami getting tired and what i posted about?
It is not wishful thinking, it is a reality. You are the one who is wishing for it to change.
Zoro knows his own place, the place to be the best and he tolerates Luffy only as long as Luffy represents the set of values a captain stands for(strength is irrelevant). He acts how he behaves, he put saving Luffy in TB on a lower pedestal than achieving his own dream.
Luffy fandom should recognize that superiority acknowledgement will never be a thing when it comes to Zoro, same as Sanji fandom should recognize that he will never consider him his rival or whatever due to fundamentally different values which they stand for.
Zoro knows his own place, the place to be the best and he tolerates Luffy only as long as Luffy represents the set of values a captain stands for(strength is irrelevant). He acts how he behaves, he put saving Luffy in TB on a lower pedestal than achieving his own dream.
Luffy fandom should recognize that superiority acknowledgement will never be a thing when it comes to Zoro, same as Sanji fandom should recognize that he will never consider him his rival or whatever due to fundamentally different values which they stand for.
Where have you seen things like "Zoro is not affected" by things... Are you sure there's nothing in that's affected Zoro post time skip? Or are you just saying he isn't affected by things you THINK should affect him? Or he reacts in ways you don't think he should react?
For example in punk hazard, Sanji shouts at Zoro to protect Tashigi and Zoro ignores him. This is Zoro after 600 chapters of showing he doesn't respect Sanji's chivalry bullshit he doesn't even have to react and that already tell the readers enough about what Zoro thinks of Sanji. Plain indifference.
Next Zoro seemingly acts shy by holding back against Monet and it's revealed that he just doesn't want to beat up weaklings. That's a reaction to a situation only Zoro would have, RESTRAINT. And then when Tashigi comes in, Zoro gives her chance to prove herself to him and she does a semi decent job. Zoro then congratulates her for the first time ever in the series. Pre time skip, Zoro's entire relationship with Tashigi was him falling on his ass after seeing her then post time skip he's no longer a bumbling idiot around her and tells her he doesn't respect her because she's weak. Then when She takes out Monet, he acknowledges her for the first time as slightly less weak. THAT'S MATURITY. From falling on his ass around her pre time skip to acknowledging a little growth in her post time skip
These are all reactions Zoro has to Sanji Monet and Tashigi which are explicitly different from the reactions he would ha them if he was pre time skip Zoro which are all characterised by his growth. He acknowledges Tashigi, ignores Sanji, and is restrained in beating up weakling Monet.
Next we have Dressrosa where Zoro's immediate reaction to the tontatta is pure irritation. Remember that tontatta are introduced as thieves and this only affects Zoro. This entire aspect of the tontatta was created to only affect Zoro since Wicca stole his swords and so the obvious reaction Zoro has to the tontatta is irritation. Wicca then goes on to hang onto Zoro for a while and beat him up whenever she throws a tantrums and it's made clear that tontatta punches are like getting hit with hammers and this chick kept hitting Zoro any time she wanted over nothing and so Zoro's continued reaction to her remained IRRITATION
So once again here you are ignoring context saying Zoro should've had an immediate "Kawaii desu" reaction to some chick who stole his swords and beat him up all the time.
And continuing this, Zoro was pretty JOYFUL during the Dressrosa party, very WORRIED when Fujitora turned out to be an admiral, Very EXCITED when he got to fight Pica and even DISSAPOINTED when Luffy entered the colosseuem fighting tournament without him.
These are all Reactions Zoro has had all over the post time skip and I wonder again whether you just wanted him to have different reactions even though we know who he is or just don't recognize that he grew as a person
Like if you want whacky reactions Oda even threw in the Pica voice gag that even Zoro laughed at since you want Zoro to just react like everyone else even though Zoro never did that even pre time skip
For example in punk hazard, Sanji shouts at Zoro to protect Tashigi and Zoro ignores him. This is Zoro after 600 chapters of showing he doesn't respect Sanji's chivalry bullshit he doesn't even have to react and that already tell the readers enough about what Zoro thinks of Sanji. Plain indifference.
Next Zoro seemingly acts shy by holding back against Monet and it's revealed that he just doesn't want to beat up weaklings. That's a reaction to a situation only Zoro would have, RESTRAINT. And then when Tashigi comes in, Zoro gives her chance to prove herself to him and she does a semi decent job. Zoro then congratulates her for the first time ever in the series. Pre time skip, Zoro's entire relationship with Tashigi was him falling on his ass after seeing her then post time skip he's no longer a bumbling idiot around her and tells her he doesn't respect her because she's weak. Then when She takes out Monet, he acknowledges her for the first time as slightly less weak. THAT'S MATURITY. From falling on his ass around her pre time skip to acknowledging a little growth in her post time skip
These are all reactions Zoro has to Sanji Monet and Tashigi which are explicitly different from the reactions he would ha them if he was pre time skip Zoro which are all characterised by his growth. He acknowledges Tashigi, ignores Sanji, and is restrained in beating up weakling Monet.
Next we have Dressrosa where Zoro's immediate reaction to the tontatta is pure irritation. Remember that tontatta are introduced as thieves and this only affects Zoro. This entire aspect of the tontatta was created to only affect Zoro since Wicca stole his swords and so the obvious reaction Zoro has to the tontatta is irritation. Wicca then goes on to hang onto Zoro for a while and beat him up whenever she throws a tantrums and it's made clear that tontatta punches are like getting hit with hammers and this chick kept hitting Zoro any time she wanted over nothing and so Zoro's continued reaction to her remained IRRITATION
So once again here you are ignoring context saying Zoro should've had an immediate "Kawaii desu" reaction to some chick who stole his swords and beat him up all the time.
And continuing this, Zoro was pretty JOYFUL during the Dressrosa party, very WORRIED when Fujitora turned out to be an admiral, Very EXCITED when he got to fight Pica and even DISSAPOINTED when Luffy entered the colosseuem fighting tournament without him.
These are all Reactions Zoro has had all over the post time skip and I wonder again whether you just wanted him to have different reactions even though we know who he is or just don't recognize that he grew as a person
Like if you want whacky reactions Oda even threw in the Pica voice gag that even Zoro laughed at since you want Zoro to just react like everyone else even though Zoro never did that even pre time skip
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What you posted was seemingly not response to anything I said since it didn't address anything I was actually saying
I responded to you saying Zoro would one day get tired of straightening out Luffy and I said that's impossible since they are too similar in mindset already for Zoro to one day break and it's Nami who is written to get exhausted of Luffy
I have no idea what you were saying when you responded
I responded to you saying Zoro would one day get tired of straightening out Luffy and I said that's impossible since they are too similar in mindset already for Zoro to one day break and it's Nami who is written to get exhausted of Luffy
I have no idea what you were saying when you responded
What?!!
I barely seen ANY character development for him
in fact THE ONLY straw hat that had a legit character development (after joining crew) was Robin
One Piece story is FULL of lovable stereotypes and few characters ... if you don't agree ... it means you never really though about it
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what character development?!
the only time he showed any character development is when he bowed to Mihawk
but even that didn't really was a development for his character cause he was still the same person after words
a real character development is some one like
compere to Zuko ... honestly ... NO ONE in One piece had a REAL character development
and for Zoro ... he didn't even had Robin level character development ... same as rest of crew
Vivi had a better character development than ANY straw hats
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Rivalry by definition means the after the same goal in order for them to compete for it
No one can actually seem to point out what this similar goal is between Zoro and Sanji.
This is just a since it has never amounted to anything outside of gag scenes
Like anyone acknowledged this in a serious situation? The closest these two had come to competing in a serious situation is the kuma situation but of course Oda showed us that every other straw hat and even the lola pirates were willing to die for Luffy so all that mattered was the person left standing... Meaning ussop and Zoro could've had the exact same scene and nothing about it was predicated on it being Sanji and Zoro except Zoro obviously being the one with monstrous endurance to survive the pain transfer
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Outside of gags? Has it ever actually affected the plot actual characters? Has either Sanji or Zoro ever grown in strength or characters or advanced any kind of plot threw this?
No. Then it's just a gag. In fact the Sanji nosebleed gag has more relevance to actual plot than this supposed "Rivalry"
No one can actually seem to point out what this similar goal is between Zoro and Sanji.
This is just a since it has never amounted to anything outside of gag scenes
Like anyone acknowledged this in a serious situation? The closest these two had come to competing in a serious situation is the kuma situation but of course Oda showed us that every other straw hat and even the lola pirates were willing to die for Luffy so all that mattered was the person left standing... Meaning ussop and Zoro could've had the exact same scene and nothing about it was predicated on it being Sanji and Zoro except Zoro obviously being the one with monstrous endurance to survive the pain transfer
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Outside of gags? Has it ever actually affected the plot actual characters? Has either Sanji or Zoro ever grown in strength or characters or advanced any kind of plot threw this?
No. Then it's just a gag. In fact the Sanji nosebleed gag has more relevance to actual plot than this supposed "Rivalry"
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Rivalry:
"competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field"
Ever since the Dinosaur Hunt, Zoro and Sanji's developed a rivalry. Their rivalry is on the basis of who is superior/inferior to the other. In which they regularly compete. This then causes an antagonistic relationship with the two of them. In which they inslut each other to hold the superiority above the other. However those remarks lead to fights which both end equally.
So to answer your question. They often do compete, however their rivalry comes from needing superiorty in the same field. And that field is literally their relationship. They wanna prove to be stronger than the other...They wanna prove that they are betrer than the other. And thats where their are rivalry comes from.
"competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field"
Ever since the Dinosaur Hunt, Zoro and Sanji's developed a rivalry. Their rivalry is on the basis of who is superior/inferior to the other. In which they regularly compete. This then causes an antagonistic relationship with the two of them. In which they inslut each other to hold the superiority above the other. However those remarks lead to fights which both end equally.
So to answer your question. They often do compete, however their rivalry comes from needing superiorty in the same field. And that field is literally their relationship. They wanna prove to be stronger than the other...They wanna prove that they are betrer than the other. And thats where their are rivalry comes from.
At the beginning of the manga, Zoro was selfish, lonely and his only drive was his dream. He entered the crew because Luffy blackmailed him but he stated to Luffy that if he ever stop him to reach his goal, he will cut him down. At this point, Zoro laughs, troll and was more lighthearted but his dream was the center of his universe.
Then he loses badly to Mihawk. The realization of how weak he was, made him be more serious even more adamant to train at any given time. Because he acknowledged his weakness. He understood that he has to give more. To be more powerful. To be a different animal but the same beast. Why? Because his dream was everything to him. It was the center of his universe. That’s way, in tears, he promised his friend to never lose again. Because defeat means death in the swordsman world (I.e what he said to Mihawk) and dying means not realizing his dream.
At Thriller bark and then in front of Mihawk, Zoro put his life and his pride aside. First for Luffy’s sake and then for the crew sake. Because at this point, he was not putting his dream above everything anymore. Remember that for Zoro dying is not accomplishing his dream but without a second thought he offered his life to Kuma and face an ordeal of blood putting his life on the line.
And he done that because he first priority now is to be able to protect his nakamas.
He continued to seek strength but not only to achieve his dream but also for his friends.
He was trained by Mihawk and lived with him for two years. Which allows some of Mihawk’s traits to affect him. He is also more grim as if the place where he trained also affects him. He is striving to greatness, still loyal to Luffy and still want to protect his crewmates bit now he is more reflective. Furthermore, he is has shown more leadership after the timeskip.
Saying that Zoro had no character development is factually false. The fact that you did not seen it is pretty sad.
Then he loses badly to Mihawk. The realization of how weak he was, made him be more serious even more adamant to train at any given time. Because he acknowledged his weakness. He understood that he has to give more. To be more powerful. To be a different animal but the same beast. Why? Because his dream was everything to him. It was the center of his universe. That’s way, in tears, he promised his friend to never lose again. Because defeat means death in the swordsman world (I.e what he said to Mihawk) and dying means not realizing his dream.
At Thriller bark and then in front of Mihawk, Zoro put his life and his pride aside. First for Luffy’s sake and then for the crew sake. Because at this point, he was not putting his dream above everything anymore. Remember that for Zoro dying is not accomplishing his dream but without a second thought he offered his life to Kuma and face an ordeal of blood putting his life on the line.
And he done that because he first priority now is to be able to protect his nakamas.
He continued to seek strength but not only to achieve his dream but also for his friends.
He was trained by Mihawk and lived with him for two years. Which allows some of Mihawk’s traits to affect him. He is also more grim as if the place where he trained also affects him. He is striving to greatness, still loyal to Luffy and still want to protect his crewmates bit now he is more reflective. Furthermore, he is has shown more leadership after the timeskip.
Saying that Zoro had no character development is factually false. The fact that you did not seen it is pretty sad.