Improving Discussions, less toxicity
- Thread starter Sievas
- Start date
- Status
M
The point is still the same. You want the Zoro fans of Zoro FC to change. Why would the Zoro fans in Zoro FC have to change? They worship Zoro. You took offense with that. But why?!! Just because something isn't suitable for you doesn't mean it has to be changed. Zoro FC has welcomed every member with open arms (the few members who were removed from the FC were actively degrading Zoro in every fu*king thread and acted duplicitously for the sole reason of some badge of having joined all FCs).
Nobody has ever bothered anyone talking about Zoro in Zoro FC. If you are afraid of being labeled a "Zorotard", that is solely your issue.
Dude!! You called out people saying that if they don't agree with you, they are the problem. And the fact that your idea will not work is already proven by OJ. WG doesn't need to die to prove your point.
No!! I have made no trolling effort or any bashing or any bullying. If you're saying I am the problem, then there is a problem with this thread to begin with.
Nobody has ever bothered anyone talking about Zoro in Zoro FC. If you are afraid of being labeled a "Zorotard", that is solely your issue.
Dude!! You called out people saying that if they don't agree with you, they are the problem. And the fact that your idea will not work is already proven by OJ. WG doesn't need to die to prove your point.
No!! I have made no trolling effort or any bashing or any bullying. If you're saying I am the problem, then there is a problem with this thread to begin with.
Then you might be a B and directing your devotion on what you were (D or E) 
noNo, that's... That's not quite true. There is a clear antagonism from the majority if you say something which isn't pure praise (coming from a Zoro fan even). I'm surprised you haven't picked it up, you're doing it right now.
M
Firstly, disagreement is not antagonism. I have said before, I have disagreed with members of Zoro FC before (recently in a Spoiler thread where I posted that Who's Who will be Zoro's main fight). I have even said negative things in Zoro FC discord. But I have not been prevented from posting in Zoro FC or Zoro Discord.
This antagonism thing is purely made up by people. Zoro fans get upset in FC when inside the FC they say e.g. Zoro is nothing compared to Luffy or Zoro fans are sword-swallower. And it is completely justifiable. Outside FC, you say something bad about Zoro, it is fine. Replies will be made. But inside FC, where Zoro fans are supposed to be able to praise Zoro, denigrating him is obviously wrong.
Nobody in FC will come after anybody just for disagreement. But if denigrating is something that happens, then they have every right to come after them.
This antagonism thing is purely made up by people. Zoro fans get upset in FC when inside the FC they say e.g. Zoro is nothing compared to Luffy or Zoro fans are sword-swallower. And it is completely justifiable. Outside FC, you say something bad about Zoro, it is fine. Replies will be made. But inside FC, where Zoro fans are supposed to be able to praise Zoro, denigrating him is obviously wrong.
Nobody in FC will come after anybody just for disagreement. But if denigrating is something that happens, then they have every right to come after them.
A staff has already taken a more positive(or friendly?) approach so I'll take another. Toxicity will never go away. In every form of social interaction between a mass gathering of people, there will always be toxicity. Most people dont care about the art of understanding other viewpoints, but about being right and surrounding themselves with like minded individuals and engaging in mob mentality. They act like being wrong or misinformed harms their nonexistent credibility of something.
There's also the issue of convenience. We're really trying our best, but the mod team are constantly being thrown around the multiple fanbases as being biased. We've been accused of protecting Luffy, Zoro and Sanji fans. When someone makes a thread saying our moderation needs work, its always from people who's posts and threads(mainly troll threads) have been deleted for obvious reasons. When we banned ZoroGang, Zoro swarmed us with conspiracies. When we banned TrueGodMoe, Sanji fans swarmed us with conspiracies. We try to be lenient with everyone as we naturally just want everybody to get along but our hands are obviously pushed. Zoro fans are obviously the popular ones when it comes to toxicity but the reports dont lie.....its all the fanbases constantly going at each other with the exact same behavior. Zoro fans simply have the bigger numbers. Many forums need to stop relying so much on mob mentality and complaining purely based on loss of convenience.
As for OJ, yes we've used them as a framework. We saw exactly what went wrong on the site and how certain moderation methods failed. The OJ team dealt with toxicity by shutting down all the hot topics(Zoro vs Sanji, Doflamingo, Yonko-Admiral) etc and punishing those who talked about said topics in other threads. This lead to even more toxicity as members created numerous mini threads of the closed topics and constantly called out the mods for being bias(cause such actions obviously comes off as dictator-like). Yoy cant create a toxic FREE environment. Attempting such means you have shut down all topics that get heated and ban every person who gets heated in the first place.
All n' all, I think its important that us in the mod team have a different set of opinions and standards. Imagine if we were all Luffy and Sanji fans? Or thought any form of meming was ban worthy?(not that any of us think that) Zoro fans would have a really bad time cause of clear bias. That's one of the big problems with moderation teams on other platforms...just a group of like-minded individuals fueling the toxic mob mentality.
There's also the issue of convenience. We're really trying our best, but the mod team are constantly being thrown around the multiple fanbases as being biased. We've been accused of protecting Luffy, Zoro and Sanji fans. When someone makes a thread saying our moderation needs work, its always from people who's posts and threads(mainly troll threads) have been deleted for obvious reasons. When we banned ZoroGang, Zoro swarmed us with conspiracies. When we banned TrueGodMoe, Sanji fans swarmed us with conspiracies. We try to be lenient with everyone as we naturally just want everybody to get along but our hands are obviously pushed. Zoro fans are obviously the popular ones when it comes to toxicity but the reports dont lie.....its all the fanbases constantly going at each other with the exact same behavior. Zoro fans simply have the bigger numbers. Many forums need to stop relying so much on mob mentality and complaining purely based on loss of convenience.
As for OJ, yes we've used them as a framework. We saw exactly what went wrong on the site and how certain moderation methods failed. The OJ team dealt with toxicity by shutting down all the hot topics(Zoro vs Sanji, Doflamingo, Yonko-Admiral) etc and punishing those who talked about said topics in other threads. This lead to even more toxicity as members created numerous mini threads of the closed topics and constantly called out the mods for being bias(cause such actions obviously comes off as dictator-like). Yoy cant create a toxic FREE environment. Attempting such means you have shut down all topics that get heated and ban every person who gets heated in the first place.
All n' all, I think its important that us in the mod team have a different set of opinions and standards. Imagine if we were all Luffy and Sanji fans? Or thought any form of meming was ban worthy?(not that any of us think that) Zoro fans would have a really bad time cause of clear bias. That's one of the big problems with moderation teams on other platforms...just a group of like-minded individuals fueling the toxic mob mentality.
Great job @Sievas, I empathize with your sentiments and agree with the spirit of your post. However, I believe the basis for your soliloquy is faulty, the bolded parts to be exact.
A majority of participants in online hardcore fandoms don’t do it to enjoy their “favorite” series communally. As a 15 year veteran of online hardcore fandoms, I saw it happen in every one of them. Anyone that actively participates in hardcore fandoms has been, at a point in their life, a dedicated fan of said series. A Fan in the purest sense. One that enthusiastically follows said series and tries to digest it for what it does positively and negatively.
As time flows, familiarity and deeper grasp over the series' lore and beats are gained, and fatigue and boredom set in for a group of those fans. Yet, it's always been a passionate pastime of theirs. So, we arrive at the dichotomy of the hardcore forum fandom. That group of fans, having lost their investment in the actual series, direct that investment to fandom itself. The series, initially the object of their investment, becomes but a background for their actual current devotion. Fandom.
By my incomplete induction, I’ll classify our forum fandom, by reason they continue to actively participate.
Will of A members) They've had legitimate long term gripes with the creative/artistic direction of the series and are completely devoid of any emotional attachment to any aspect of it anymore. Nevertheless, they take pleasure in educating the "fanboys" about how oblivious they are to the series' decline in merit. Objectively bad characterization, Incosistent writing, stakes, etc... are terms they usually use (thank you TV Tropes, Cinema Sins, etc...). They don't dabble in memes, shitposting, etc.. They have a superior online philosopher persona to protect
Will of B members ) Likewise, they've no emotional attachment to the actual series anymore. Nonetheless, they continue to be attached to the high of the shared communal experience of spoiler/new chapter anticipation. Like Roger Ebert once said, "Anyone who would camp out in a tent on the sidewalk, for weeks in order to be first in line for a movie is more into camping on the sidewalk than movies"
Will of C members) They've no emotional attachment to the actual series, but they've directed their devotion to a specific character/power level fandom. They're not reading the series for the series, they're using the series as a gambling simulator. They're fans of fandom wars. Pick a winning horse (character/power level tier) and anticipate every week to see if you have the winning pick. Story, context, character situation, ability interactions, drama, etc... be damned. It's all about "W"s, "L"s, "portrayal", "hype/dehype", etc... They tend to manipulate any thread/conversation back to their character's power level conflict. One panel of one character getting hit, is gold for the hater, and hell for the stan! Limited participation beyond viciously defending their character's power level and baiting/downplaying other character fandoms
Will of D members) They've been invested in the story's lore, characters, drama, action, comedy, art, etc... for a significant portion of their lives, and are participating to express that passion. They have their ups and downs with the story, but overall the investment in fandom is secondary to the investment in the actual series. Participation extends to all topics of discussion, from story, to plot holes, to character interactions, to fan art, to shipping, to comedy, to memes, etc... as reasonably as possible without being absorbed into the discussion parameters set by Groups A-C
Will of E members) They're still invested and would like to discuss the actual story, however, they get absorbed into the parameters of discussion set by Groups A-C. They can't go back to digesting the series as they have in the past. Now, they can only read the series through eyes tinted with "this is an L", "this is bad portrayal", "this is bad writing", "If this happens to this character I like they'll slander him", "Big Meme haha", etc... The poor souls joined to discuss the actual story, only to discover hardcore fandoms have moved on from series discourse to discussing themselves
Will of F - as in Fanboys) "This series is the greatest thing since we discovered fire" ultimate fanboys. But I don't see much weight for it in our forum. That's mostly Reddit!!!!
Ok after this long-winded breakdown, let me make my actual point. I think you’re speaking for the poor souls in Group E lol Some fans just can't cope with the annoyance of not being able to discuss the series you still care about independently of hardcore fandom chaos. It totally sucks that great fans like you don’t get enjoyment of being here to the extent that you imagined before you joined.
Personally (I’m from the Will of D group btw
), I'm the least bothered individual by literally anything online or in person 
So I still rock with my favorites in a way that's authentic to me and find most of the lAnJi/LiG mEmE shenanigans and memes amusing and entertaining as hell. I know exactly what I come to this forum for, I know hardcore fandom cancer and I enjoy consuming it! Feed me more cancer please! But I completely understand that other fans can't separate their reason for following the series and the reason they frequent hardcore forums.
As @MD Zolo said, that’s what happens in every forum fandom. If I wanted to seriously discuss One Piece I’d probably not join any online forum as I view the series with different lenses than forum fandom majority. Attempting to reach agreement based on differing subjective premises will always lead to unproductive conversations. Add to that my current workload (I’m literally losing money writing this
but I thought your post deserved a legitimate response) doesn’t allow me to share what I actually want to say about the series. So most of my posts now are low effort Gifs and Memes simply to blow off some steam and have some laughs (sorry lads lol). I personally find most fans in all the above groups to be fun/hilarious to talk to. I’ll probably never agree with most of them about many aspects of One Piece, but I can still participate in entertaining chaos nonetheless. I'll legit discuss anything with anybody lol (except when @Monkey D. Luffy @Red Dog @Fujishiro bring up Bao Huang 
)
I think you’re onto something with group private conversations with other like minded fans. If that helps you enjoy the communal experience by evading the environment of chaos and sourness that dominates main threads, that’s a great idea.
I won’t be able to post much over the next 10 hours, but I’ll be happy to discuss more later if you wanna just vent.
A majority of participants in online hardcore fandoms don’t do it to enjoy their “favorite” series communally. As a 15 year veteran of online hardcore fandoms, I saw it happen in every one of them. Anyone that actively participates in hardcore fandoms has been, at a point in their life, a dedicated fan of said series. A Fan in the purest sense. One that enthusiastically follows said series and tries to digest it for what it does positively and negatively.
As time flows, familiarity and deeper grasp over the series' lore and beats are gained, and fatigue and boredom set in for a group of those fans. Yet, it's always been a passionate pastime of theirs. So, we arrive at the dichotomy of the hardcore forum fandom. That group of fans, having lost their investment in the actual series, direct that investment to fandom itself. The series, initially the object of their investment, becomes but a background for their actual current devotion. Fandom.
By my incomplete induction, I’ll classify our forum fandom, by reason they continue to actively participate.
Will of A members) They've had legitimate long term gripes with the creative/artistic direction of the series and are completely devoid of any emotional attachment to any aspect of it anymore. Nevertheless, they take pleasure in educating the "fanboys" about how oblivious they are to the series' decline in merit. Objectively bad characterization, Incosistent writing, stakes, etc... are terms they usually use (thank you TV Tropes, Cinema Sins, etc...). They don't dabble in memes, shitposting, etc.. They have a superior online philosopher persona to protect
Will of B members ) Likewise, they've no emotional attachment to the actual series anymore. Nonetheless, they continue to be attached to the high of the shared communal experience of spoiler/new chapter anticipation. Like Roger Ebert once said, "Anyone who would camp out in a tent on the sidewalk, for weeks in order to be first in line for a movie is more into camping on the sidewalk than movies"
Will of C members) They've no emotional attachment to the actual series, but they've directed their devotion to a specific character/power level fandom. They're not reading the series for the series, they're using the series as a gambling simulator. They're fans of fandom wars. Pick a winning horse (character/power level tier) and anticipate every week to see if you have the winning pick. Story, context, character situation, ability interactions, drama, etc... be damned. It's all about "W"s, "L"s, "portrayal", "hype/dehype", etc... They tend to manipulate any thread/conversation back to their character's power level conflict. One panel of one character getting hit, is gold for the hater, and hell for the stan! Limited participation beyond viciously defending their character's power level and baiting/downplaying other character fandoms
Will of D members) They've been invested in the story's lore, characters, drama, action, comedy, art, etc... for a significant portion of their lives, and are participating to express that passion. They have their ups and downs with the story, but overall the investment in fandom is secondary to the investment in the actual series. Participation extends to all topics of discussion, from story, to plot holes, to character interactions, to fan art, to shipping, to comedy, to memes, etc... as reasonably as possible without being absorbed into the discussion parameters set by Groups A-C
Will of E members) They're still invested and would like to discuss the actual story, however, they get absorbed into the parameters of discussion set by Groups A-C. They can't go back to digesting the series as they have in the past. Now, they can only read the series through eyes tinted with "this is an L", "this is bad portrayal", "this is bad writing", "If this happens to this character I like they'll slander him", "Big Meme haha", etc... The poor souls joined to discuss the actual story, only to discover hardcore fandoms have moved on from series discourse to discussing themselves
Will of F - as in Fanboys) "This series is the greatest thing since we discovered fire" ultimate fanboys. But I don't see much weight for it in our forum. That's mostly Reddit!!!!
Ok after this long-winded breakdown, let me make my actual point. I think you’re speaking for the poor souls in Group E lol Some fans just can't cope with the annoyance of not being able to discuss the series you still care about independently of hardcore fandom chaos. It totally sucks that great fans like you don’t get enjoyment of being here to the extent that you imagined before you joined.
Personally (I’m from the Will of D group btw
), I'm the least bothered individual by literally anything online or in person So I still rock with my favorites in a way that's authentic to me and find most of the lAnJi/LiG mEmE shenanigans and memes amusing and entertaining as hell. I know exactly what I come to this forum for, I know hardcore fandom cancer and I enjoy consuming it! Feed me more cancer please! But I completely understand that other fans can't separate their reason for following the series and the reason they frequent hardcore forums.As @MD Zolo said, that’s what happens in every forum fandom. If I wanted to seriously discuss One Piece I’d probably not join any online forum as I view the series with different lenses than forum fandom majority. Attempting to reach agreement based on differing subjective premises will always lead to unproductive conversations. Add to that my current workload (I’m literally losing money writing this
but I thought your post deserved a legitimate response) doesn’t allow me to share what I actually want to say about the series. So most of my posts now are low effort Gifs and Memes simply to blow off some steam and have some laughs (sorry lads lol). I personally find most fans in all the above groups to be fun/hilarious to talk to. I’ll probably never agree with most of them about many aspects of One Piece, but I can still participate in entertaining chaos nonetheless. I'll legit discuss anything with anybody lol (except when @Monkey D. Luffy @Red Dog @Fujishiro bring up Bao Huang )I think you’re onto something with group private conversations with other like minded fans. If that helps you enjoy the communal experience by evading the environment of chaos and sourness that dominates main threads, that’s a great idea.
I won’t be able to post much over the next 10 hours, but I’ll be happy to discuss more later if you wanna just vent.
M
You don't see it, but trust me people agree on this and it isn't made up. And not over denigrating, but let's not turn this into a Zoro thread. Indeed those of us who don't like it don't need to post there, I can appreciate Zoro on my own. 
Who are the people that agree on this? Why do they feel so? Can you give me an example where someone was bullied in Zoro FC just for disagreement?
I have very weird opinion on this matter.
I don't think there is any solution to toxicity at the level of mods. You can make rules more strict or even can make rules implementation strict but there is no way that's an effective strategy.
To some extent it will help but It will also create an atmosphere of being restricted and being controlled which I don't think anyone wants here.
Toxicity is everywhere especially on platforms where real identity of users are hidden.
Toxicity is also subjective. There is thin border line between what some find amusing and what others find toxic. It completely depends on which spectrum you lie and how much sensitive as a person you are.
For example, If zoro is gettin highlighted, then zoro fans will troll and sometimes it go overboard and sanji fans find situation toxic.
Or take zoro vs kamzou time when sanji fans were going around trolling like crazy for two weeks. They were enjoying it because then they were not at the receiving end and zoro fans find situation toxic
Similar situation is noticed when it comes to yonkou vs admirals or any other power debate or regarding op is good vs op critique and so on.
You can't remove toxicity. Mods can check it but they can't remove it because who will define what exactly toxicity means in various context? They can't keep eye on every posts made here.
Also, they have to balance freedom of expression with rules implementation which itself is difficult along with balancing their real life work with work over here.
So frankly speaking, don't expect much from mods. They are already doing their best.
Tbh, this place has way more cool mods than any forum I have been.
However, if you really wanna reduce toxicity then start with yourself...
1)report posts which you find insulting or breaking rules so that mods can directly take care of it. I doubt that many of you even do that.
2) put users you find toxic on ignore list. It will help you get peace of mind
3)and, most importantly learn to let it go. You will come across Hate and toxic speeches or posts on every online platform. Just learn to overlook such things. This might look simple but frankly speaking it's the most effective strategy.
Don't let opinion of others influence you in any way and learn to let it go. Not only this skill will help you on online platforms but also in real life especially when your gf is complaining about you or your boss is dissing you for no reason or a stranger is passing comment on you lmao
Frankly speaking, if you want to end toxicity or even reduce it then start the change with yourself first.
I don't think there is any solution to toxicity at the level of mods. You can make rules more strict or even can make rules implementation strict but there is no way that's an effective strategy.
To some extent it will help but It will also create an atmosphere of being restricted and being controlled which I don't think anyone wants here.
Toxicity is everywhere especially on platforms where real identity of users are hidden.
Toxicity is also subjective. There is thin border line between what some find amusing and what others find toxic. It completely depends on which spectrum you lie and how much sensitive as a person you are.
For example, If zoro is gettin highlighted, then zoro fans will troll and sometimes it go overboard and sanji fans find situation toxic.
Or take zoro vs kamzou time when sanji fans were going around trolling like crazy for two weeks. They were enjoying it because then they were not at the receiving end and zoro fans find situation toxic
Similar situation is noticed when it comes to yonkou vs admirals or any other power debate or regarding op is good vs op critique and so on.
You can't remove toxicity. Mods can check it but they can't remove it because who will define what exactly toxicity means in various context? They can't keep eye on every posts made here.
Also, they have to balance freedom of expression with rules implementation which itself is difficult along with balancing their real life work with work over here.
So frankly speaking, don't expect much from mods. They are already doing their best.
Tbh, this place has way more cool mods than any forum I have been.
However, if you really wanna reduce toxicity then start with yourself...
1)report posts which you find insulting or breaking rules so that mods can directly take care of it. I doubt that many of you even do that.
2) put users you find toxic on ignore list. It will help you get peace of mind
3)and, most importantly learn to let it go. You will come across Hate and toxic speeches or posts on every online platform. Just learn to overlook such things. This might look simple but frankly speaking it's the most effective strategy.
Don't let opinion of others influence you in any way and learn to let it go. Not only this skill will help you on online platforms but also in real life especially when your gf is complaining about you or your boss is dissing you for no reason or a stranger is passing comment on you lmao
Frankly speaking, if you want to end toxicity or even reduce it then start the change with yourself first.
I think most users like the WG for what it is, mainly trolling, wanking and bashing each other.
Even if they say otherwise and dont admit it, they are waiting for an opportunity to rub it in the first chance they get.
It may be look repelling to new users who werent part of OJ's end and to those who want to have a proper discussion.
Because of that, I think there should be specific section/thread(s) where all the trolling/wanking/bashing is off-limits.
If censorship would be enforced on the entire forum, it would turn it into what OJ ended up like - no bueno.
People like WG because of the freedom of expression but it lacks sections where too much freedom is sanctioned.
Even if they say otherwise and dont admit it, they are waiting for an opportunity to rub it in the first chance they get.
It may be look repelling to new users who werent part of OJ's end and to those who want to have a proper discussion.
Because of that, I think there should be specific section/thread(s) where all the trolling/wanking/bashing is off-limits.
If censorship would be enforced on the entire forum, it would turn it into what OJ ended up like - no bueno.
People like WG because of the freedom of expression but it lacks sections where too much freedom is sanctioned.
- Status