Break Week No, Zoro is NOT "Done" After Defeating King
The whole argument hinges on the assertion that the Ryuma and Oden parallels have to be fulfilled now because they would have no meaning outside of Wano. Wano is about to be opened so its legends could very easily have an impact on the rest of the world moving forward. For instance, is Zoro really going to have a black blade before fighting Mihawk? And does Mihawk, as the current worlds greatest swordsman really have no knowledge of swordsmanship’s historic legend Ryuma? Sounds unlikely.
It’s going to be really interesting to see what pays off in Wano, because there’s already way too much happening in the arc.
It’s going to be really interesting to see what pays off in Wano, because there’s already way too much happening in the arc.
But that’s ur opinion how does oda view defeat not u and your personal head cannon how does oda view it because we have proof in the story let’s go back to impel down and look at the jailer beast guards who mind u are awakened zoans just like we assume kaido should be …ok explanation time in chap 532 we get introduced to the Minotaur by the end of the fight with it Luffy has defeated the Minotaur he even says this himself on a group chant with bon clay and buggy and mr 3 the Minotaur is down for the count it is knocked out and defeated per odas words now go to chap 544 page 11 everyone is shocked that the Minotaur is back up bon clay even says what? I thought we beat it already crocodile then explains that a key factor for awakens zoans are recovery speed also in this chapter the other 3 jailer beast are down as well but in 545 they are back up this is all the proof that’s needed to say kaido can be defeated by luffy and it counts but kaido can get back up in a chap or two and be a major threat and then zkk happens because luffy is to tired from coc use or gear 5th or both now let’s take this a step further this is my head cannon as to how this goes luffy beats kaido and sends him flying into the sea luffy thinks he has fully defeated maybe even killed kaido but we will see why kaido is the strongest in the sea he will come back and try to kill luffy or wano citizens and then zkk happens and zoro will call back to ryuma in monsters where ryuma says a battle isn’t about fame but what u protected and also zoros master kyoshiro saying the pinnacle of swordsmanship is the power to be able to protect what you wish to protect and cut what one wishes to cut and finally ain’t no dam fan of this manga gonna be mad if zoro protects his captain and has to kill kaido for that…I’d go to find panels but Idk how to do that sooo u can research this info if wanted
Then it's your opinion it doesn't undermine Luffy's victory. We haven't seen any of the Zoans on Wano awaken yet there's no guarantee that will happen that is headcanon. Even if Kaido has an Awakening it would show Luffy couldn't beat Kaido in the end.
It's been clear however when Luffy fights someone in a 1 v 1 he sees it out to the end. To Zoro fans it wouldn't seem to undermine Luffy's victory but to Luffy fans it would.
Why should Luffy be the only one out of the M3 to not see their battles out and have some cop out where someone else has to come in to finish it? Never happened in the series can't see it happening now.
Zoro had his Ryuma moment by defeating Kings magma dragon he even used the 3 sword style version of the exact same move that's his most powerful version of the attack. It'd be cringe for Oda try force that again as he should have just saved it if it was to be used for ZKK
Everyone said the whole argument hinges on whether Zoro is knocked out and this chapter Zoro looks pretty out of it.
The pro ZKK cultists move the goalposts after each chapter.
- Zoro won't want to fight King after fighting Kaido.
- Zoro will be healed and head straight to te roof.
- Zoro won't listen to Luffy and stay below.
- Zoro as long as he's awake will make it back to the roof.
Think people just need to call it a day. Luffy is taken the W home and Zoro is going to be a spectator to it if not unconscious for it. If Kaido dies it'll be to Blackbeard or WG especially now Luffy and Kaido are sort of gaining a mutual respect for one another.
It's been clear however when Luffy fights someone in a 1 v 1 he sees it out to the end. To Zoro fans it wouldn't seem to undermine Luffy's victory but to Luffy fans it would.
Why should Luffy be the only one out of the M3 to not see their battles out and have some cop out where someone else has to come in to finish it? Never happened in the series can't see it happening now.
Zoro had his Ryuma moment by defeating Kings magma dragon he even used the 3 sword style version of the exact same move that's his most powerful version of the attack. It'd be cringe for Oda try force that again as he should have just saved it if it was to be used for ZKK
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Everyone said the whole argument hinges on whether Zoro is knocked out and this chapter Zoro looks pretty out of it.
The pro ZKK cultists move the goalposts after each chapter.
- Zoro won't want to fight King after fighting Kaido.
- Zoro will be healed and head straight to te roof.
- Zoro won't listen to Luffy and stay below.
- Zoro as long as he's awake will make it back to the roof.
Think people just need to call it a day. Luffy is taken the W home and Zoro is going to be a spectator to it if not unconscious for it. If Kaido dies it'll be to Blackbeard or WG especially now Luffy and Kaido are sort of gaining a mutual respect for one another.
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it’s literally oda opinion a awakened user can be defeated and be proclaimed as such and yet come back and it’s nothing wrong with that unless oda recons what’s already in the story it won’t make kaido any stronger the key strengths of a awakened zoan are toughness and recovery speed it’s no cop out luffy will have shown that he beat kaido toughness kaido won’t have anything else to show but the recovery speed which luffy won’t have which will lead to zkk and it’s not pure headcannon at all lol the worlds strongest creature not being awakened would be a massive disservice to the title and kaido ,finally as dear as zoro having his moment already that is false …nobody saw it ….king nor that flame dragon are the terror of wano that needs to be ended…literally all the backing for zkk to happen isn’t wasted on a flame dragon hell we still have a black blade to get
Luffy beat those awakened zoans and even if they came back he could have still beat them. It's a different scenario to Luffy knocking Kaido down and him getting back up ready for another round and Luffy isn't.
No matter how you try to slice it or try to make it seem it's not undermining, if Luffy cannot put down Kaido including his Awakening feature Luffy cannot be seen beating Kaido. If Kaido recovers due to Awakening Luffy has to be able to outlast that it's as simple as that.
It boils down to whether Oda will make Luffy look weak by not being able to put down Kaido fully or if he stays consistent with after each fight Luffy leaves his opponent white eyed, bloody faced and missing teeth.
We don't even know if Zoro will leave Wano with a black blade there's no hint that he'll get one in Wano. Only a conversation from the blacksmith saying Enma 'can' become a black blade doesn't mean in Wano.
Think you need to lower your expectations if you think Zoro is going to be seen outshining Luffy by everyone in Wano (Killing>Defeating). Well we literally got like for like panels of Ryuma cutting down a dragon and Zoro cutting a magma dragon. Don't be surprised if beast pirates or samurai who might have seen it spread the rumour Zoro beat a dragon and that becomes part of his legend. You might not like it but it's a serious possibility at this point.
Take in mind even if Zoro is able to move still (despite being shown unconscious) he still has the Orochi and Hiyori plot (he heard Hiyori playing) to resolve and possibly even the Sanji plot also. He's clearly trusted Luffy to see Kaido out to the end so it's probably not even on his mind anymore.
No matter how you try to slice it or try to make it seem it's not undermining, if Luffy cannot put down Kaido including his Awakening feature Luffy cannot be seen beating Kaido. If Kaido recovers due to Awakening Luffy has to be able to outlast that it's as simple as that.
It boils down to whether Oda will make Luffy look weak by not being able to put down Kaido fully or if he stays consistent with after each fight Luffy leaves his opponent white eyed, bloody faced and missing teeth.
We don't even know if Zoro will leave Wano with a black blade there's no hint that he'll get one in Wano. Only a conversation from the blacksmith saying Enma 'can' become a black blade doesn't mean in Wano.
Think you need to lower your expectations if you think Zoro is going to be seen outshining Luffy by everyone in Wano (Killing>Defeating). Well we literally got like for like panels of Ryuma cutting down a dragon and Zoro cutting a magma dragon. Don't be surprised if beast pirates or samurai who might have seen it spread the rumour Zoro beat a dragon and that becomes part of his legend. You might not like it but it's a serious possibility at this point.
Take in mind even if Zoro is able to move still (despite being shown unconscious) he still has the Orochi and Hiyori plot (he heard Hiyori playing) to resolve and possibly even the Sanji plot also. He's clearly trusted Luffy to see Kaido out to the end so it's probably not even on his mind anymore.
ZKK is a metagame. What does Oda know we know? What does he think we think? There are so many clues both real and admittedly imagined. What is the point? I'd imagine that either way, a large chunk of fans will be shocked. That's good enough I guess
But you know... Oda. Dude cuts a scene with Gyukimaru only to have Kawamatsu remark about the resemblance. Then he randomly introduces those three Numbers that puzzle us and abruptly closes the paternity case in an SBS.
The guy is a loose cannon and I pray that either way he doesn't just fuck it up
But you know... Oda. Dude cuts a scene with Gyukimaru only to have Kawamatsu remark about the resemblance. Then he randomly introduces those three Numbers that puzzle us and abruptly closes the paternity case in an SBS.
The guy is a loose cannon and I pray that either way he doesn't just fuck it up
Introduction
Many people think that Zoro is done after his defeat of King in 1035. That he has no important role (at least not a combat one) to play for the remainder of the arc.
I think the opinion is misguided. Zoro still has two very important plotlines that have yet to receive any sort of resolution in this arc.
Oden and Enma
Kaido repeatedly drew a connection between Zoro, Enma and Oden:
That connection has yet to have any payoff to date. If Zoro is done for after the King defeat, then pray tell, what was the purpose of these scenes?
Even at the end of the King fight, Zoro still had not yet reached Oden's mastery of Enma. He says that fighting with Enma fully unleashed would kill him:
Meanwhile, Oden could wield Enma as if it were as light as a feather:
However, Zoro has been setup to surpass Oden's mastery of Enma. To accomplish that which Oden could not do:
This still has no payoff yet.
Finally, Kaido's declaration that there shall never be a "monster samurai" of the likes of Kozuki Oden has still not been proven wrong:
Kaido needs to eat those words and acknowledge that such a samurai has been born.
This leads me to expect a second confrontation between Zoro and Kaido.
Here's a much more thorough explanation of the Oden argument.
Ryuma
Zoro has a storyline involving Ryuma and the people have Wano that has still not yet met its conclusion.
When Zoro first came to Wano, he was scorned as a murderer and grave robber:
Someone who stole Wano's national treasure and caused misfortune to befall the country as they incurred the wrath of the Sword God:
Even the person most sympathetic to Zoro (Hiyori) insisted that he return their treasure:
Stressing that it's revered as a relic:
Yet, Zoro is going to visit Ryuma's grave after the end of the war:
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Saving Wano in its most dire moment and coincidentally replicating Ryuma's legend vindicates Zoro.
Defeating King does not. None of the people in the Flower Capital cares about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them. Kaido is.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean when I tell the detractors: "you don't even understand ZKK". Their complaints don't actually engage with the theory. They just refute and debunk a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a much more detailed explanation of the Ryuma argument.
The Ryuma argument was never solely about Zoro paralleling Ryuma by slaying a dragon.
Conclusions
To leave these plot lines unresolved would be a massive disservice to Zoro's character. Furthermore, these two plotlines cannot be addressed anywhere else but in Wano itself. There is no realistic way to address them outside the Wanokuni arc. The context that makes the accomplishments meaningful are all tier to Wano.
If these plotlines are not resolved in Wano, they will simply never be resolved at all (at least not in any manner that can be considered satisfactory).
Many people think that Zoro is done after his defeat of King in 1035. That he has no important role (at least not a combat one) to play for the remainder of the arc.
I think the opinion is misguided. Zoro still has two very important plotlines that have yet to receive any sort of resolution in this arc.
Oden and Enma
Kaido repeatedly drew a connection between Zoro, Enma and Oden:
That connection has yet to have any payoff to date. If Zoro is done for after the King defeat, then pray tell, what was the purpose of these scenes?
Even at the end of the King fight, Zoro still had not yet reached Oden's mastery of Enma. He says that fighting with Enma fully unleashed would kill him:
Meanwhile, Oden could wield Enma as if it were as light as a feather:
However, Zoro has been setup to surpass Oden's mastery of Enma. To accomplish that which Oden could not do:
This still has no payoff yet.
Finally, Kaido's declaration that there shall never be a "monster samurai" of the likes of Kozuki Oden has still not been proven wrong:
Kaido needs to eat those words and acknowledge that such a samurai has been born.
This leads me to expect a second confrontation between Zoro and Kaido.
Here's a much more thorough explanation of the Oden argument.
Ryuma
Zoro has a storyline involving Ryuma and the people have Wano that has still not yet met its conclusion.
When Zoro first came to Wano, he was scorned as a murderer and grave robber:
Someone who stole Wano's national treasure and caused misfortune to befall the country as they incurred the wrath of the Sword God:
Even the person most sympathetic to Zoro (Hiyori) insisted that he return their treasure:
Stressing that it's revered as a relic:
Yet, Zoro is going to visit Ryuma's grave after the end of the war:
Before that visit, he needs to be acknowledged as a hero to the people of Wano. He must be vindicated. Ryuma's soul and Shusui itself personally chose Zoro after all:
Saving Wano in its most dire moment and coincidentally replicating Ryuma's legend vindicates Zoro.
Defeating King does not. None of the people in the Flower Capital cares about King. King is not the source of their torment and oppression. He was never a threat to them. Kaido is.
ZKK isn't necessary to get a Ryuma parallel. It doesn't need to happen for the fanservice of Zoro cutting a dragon. It's actually important for Zoro's character that he's vindicated in this way to the people of Wanokuni.
This is what I mean when I tell the detractors: "you don't even understand ZKK". Their complaints don't actually engage with the theory. They just refute and debunk a caricature of the theory, not the actual theory.
Here's a much more detailed explanation of the Ryuma argument.
The Ryuma argument was never solely about Zoro paralleling Ryuma by slaying a dragon.
- It's a conclusion to Zoro's plot threads with Shusui, Ryuma and Enma.
- Plot threads that began long ago in Thriller Bark.
- It's a vindication of Zoro's character.
- He'll transform from a grave robber and murderer to a National Hero.
- And it's an important step in the forging of Zoro's own legend.
- He will be recognised as the "Second Ryuma":
Oda already laid the groundwork for this by highlighting Zoro's connection to Ryuma at the start of his battle with King:
- He will be recognised as the "Second Ryuma":
Conclusions
To leave these plot lines unresolved would be a massive disservice to Zoro's character. Furthermore, these two plotlines cannot be addressed anywhere else but in Wano itself. There is no realistic way to address them outside the Wanokuni arc. The context that makes the accomplishments meaningful are all tier to Wano.
- Matching or surpassing Oden's calibre as a swordsman has no meaning outside of Wano.
- Oden was Wano's heir apparent and the rightful Shogun.
- He was their greatest samurai in recent history.
- His dream was to open Wano's borders.
- Enma is a sword that hails from Wano.
- It is Kaido who declared that a monster samurai of Oden's calibre shall never be seen again.
- Becoming the Second Ryuma has no meaning outside of Wano.
- He slew a dragon over the Wano Flower Capital.
- Ryuma is regarded as the "God of the Blade" to the people of Wano.
- Shusui is considered a holy relic.
- He's Wano's national hero and saviour.
- His myth and legend do not exist outside the land of Wano.
If these plotlines are not resolved in Wano, they will simply never be resolved at all (at least not in any manner that can be considered satisfactory).
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Oda : Go to sleep
