Future Events Who Will Defeat King?
Introduction
It is possible that King gets defeated in a group battle (I think this is unlikely) or is otherwise weakened before his final fight (I think this is more likely than the former, but I'm not confident this would happen either), but for this thread, I'm mainly interested in asking the question of who lands the final blow. Law and Luffy both fought Doffy in Dressrosa, but it was Luffy who landed the final blow on him.
As far as I can tell, there are two main candidates for defeating King: Marco and Zoro. It could be someone else, but I'm more than 75% confident that it's one of those two.
I would lay the case for and against each of them below.
Zoro
Marco
Conclusion
It is possible that King gets defeated in a group battle (I think this is unlikely) or is otherwise weakened before his final fight (I think this is more likely than the former, but I'm not confident this would happen either), but for this thread, I'm mainly interested in asking the question of who lands the final blow. Law and Luffy both fought Doffy in Dressrosa, but it was Luffy who landed the final blow on him.
As far as I can tell, there are two main candidates for defeating King: Marco and Zoro. It could be someone else, but I'm more than 75% confident that it's one of those two.
I would lay the case for and against each of them below.
Zoro
The Case For
The Case Against
Before Marco's arrival last chapter, Zoro was the most popular candidate for defeating King. The main reasons to believe Zoro would defeat King are:
The Normal Formula
In almost every arc, Luffy defeats the antagonist and Zoro fights the antagonist's strongest subordinate. The formula has been pretty robust both pre and post timeskip.
The only occasions that come to my mind as exceptions are:
Even in arcs that seem like they may have been exceptions, Zoro still fought the antagonist's strongest subordinate:
As can be seen above, the exceptions in which Zoro did not fight the antagonist's strongest subordinate, there were very extenuating circumstances. The formula is very robust. We'll need strong reasons to doubt that it applies to a particular arc. If Luffy indeed fights Kaido (whether with assistance or not), our priors that Zoro would fight King should be very high.
King is a Swordsman
King appears to be a (very powerful) swordsman. His blade has quite the level of detail to it, and appears to be a meitou:
Compare the level of detail on King's swords to the level of detail shown on two O Wazamono blades (Enma and Ame no Habakiri):
Giving that King appears to wield a meitou, our priors that he's a highly skilled swordsman should be farely high. Even in the Oden flashback, King appeared to use a sword in combat:
In the entirety of Wano, Zoro has yet to have a full fledged fight with a swordsman of significance. The closest he has gotten to one was his clash with Denjiro, but that clash was unresolved. On priors, it would be very surprising if Zoro does not get any swordsman battle in the entirety of Wano. Even in arcs that didn't heavily feature swordsmen (e.g. Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark and Fishman Island), Zoro got a swordsman to face (Kaku, Ryuma and Hyouzou respectively). As a result, it would be surprising if in the arc that does feature swordsmen very prominently, Zoro doesn't get a swordsman opponent to face. That King also happens to be the antagonist's strongest subordinate (like all the aforementioned swordsmen) makes it more likely that King (in particular) is the swordsman that Zoro will face.
King Uses Fire Abilities
King's epithet is "The Wildfire":
He appears to be capable of using his flames in combat:
He may be capable of creating fires that last days:
Zoro has indicated interest in a "burning" sword:
After seeing Kinemon deploy his Foxfire style to cut through an explosion, he expressed curiosity about a samurai's fighting style:
A swordsman that uses fire based abilities and is also the antagonist's strongest subordinate seems to be the ideal opponent for Zoro.
Zoro's Role in Wano
So far, Zoro has been the second most prominent character in Wano. He's ahead of even Oden in panel time, and dwarfs the other alliance members bar Luffy. He's forged connections to a lot of characters that play important roles in the arc (connections that are normally forged by Luffy):
Wano appears to be for Zoro what WCI has been for Sanji, and he's set up to take a very prominent role in the arc. Even in the recent chapters with Kidd's reappearance, Zoro has not looked at all inferior to him and still features quite heavily. I would wager that Zoro would have the second most prominent role from the alliance's side (with Kidd being third). It would be very surprising if Marco was to usurp Zoro's role in this arc.
The Normal Formula
In almost every arc, Luffy defeats the antagonist and Zoro fights the antagonist's strongest subordinate. The formula has been pretty robust both pre and post timeskip.
The only occasions that come to my mind as exceptions are:
- Romance Dawn: Zoro defeated the antagonist (Axe Hand Morgan) himself.
- Morgan did not have any clear strongest subordinate. As far as I can recall, none of his subordinates were named. So one might argue that this doesn't really count.
- Baratie: Zoro did not fight any of Don Krieg's men.
- Zoro was tken out of commission by Mihawk and was in no condition for further fights.
- Arlong Park: It is not clear that Hatchan was stronger than Kuroobi. In fact, Kuroobi's Vivre Card mentioned that he was initially intended to be the Vice Captain of the Fishman Pirates. No mention was made of this detail in the manga, so it didn't actually materialise. This is not a clear exception, but it is included for completion.
Even in arcs that seem like they may have been exceptions, Zoro still fought the antagonist's strongest subordinate:
- On Punk Hazard: Vergo was stronger than Monet (and Caesar), but he wasn't a subordinate of Caesar's. Caesar's strongest subordinate was Monet.
- Dressrosa: Pica was clearly the strongest of Doffy's executives in the arc. Even if Vergo was above Pica, Vergo did not feature as a character in the arc, so he wasn't eligible. Doffy's strongest subordinate was Pica.
- It's worth mentioning that even though Luffy had assistance in his Doffy fight, Zoro still defeated Pica by himself.
As can be seen above, the exceptions in which Zoro did not fight the antagonist's strongest subordinate, there were very extenuating circumstances. The formula is very robust. We'll need strong reasons to doubt that it applies to a particular arc. If Luffy indeed fights Kaido (whether with assistance or not), our priors that Zoro would fight King should be very high.
King is a Swordsman
King appears to be a (very powerful) swordsman. His blade has quite the level of detail to it, and appears to be a meitou:
Compare the level of detail on King's swords to the level of detail shown on two O Wazamono blades (Enma and Ame no Habakiri):
Giving that King appears to wield a meitou, our priors that he's a highly skilled swordsman should be farely high. Even in the Oden flashback, King appeared to use a sword in combat:
In the entirety of Wano, Zoro has yet to have a full fledged fight with a swordsman of significance. The closest he has gotten to one was his clash with Denjiro, but that clash was unresolved. On priors, it would be very surprising if Zoro does not get any swordsman battle in the entirety of Wano. Even in arcs that didn't heavily feature swordsmen (e.g. Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark and Fishman Island), Zoro got a swordsman to face (Kaku, Ryuma and Hyouzou respectively). As a result, it would be surprising if in the arc that does feature swordsmen very prominently, Zoro doesn't get a swordsman opponent to face. That King also happens to be the antagonist's strongest subordinate (like all the aforementioned swordsmen) makes it more likely that King (in particular) is the swordsman that Zoro will face.
King Uses Fire Abilities
King's epithet is "The Wildfire":
He appears to be capable of using his flames in combat:
He may be capable of creating fires that last days:
Zoro has indicated interest in a "burning" sword:
After seeing Kinemon deploy his Foxfire style to cut through an explosion, he expressed curiosity about a samurai's fighting style:
A swordsman that uses fire based abilities and is also the antagonist's strongest subordinate seems to be the ideal opponent for Zoro.
Zoro's Role in Wano
So far, Zoro has been the second most prominent character in Wano. He's ahead of even Oden in panel time, and dwarfs the other alliance members bar Luffy. He's forged connections to a lot of characters that play important roles in the arc (connections that are normally forged by Luffy):
- He met Otama.
- In chapter 980, Zoro agreed with Luffy's decision to attack the Beast Pirates for wasting food due to also bearing witness to Tama's suffering.
- He befriended Yasuie.
- Following Yasuie's execution Zoro swore to avenge him. This is very important as Zoro has said that he dislikes fighting for revenge. Yasuie gave Zoro emotional involvement in the conflicts of the arc and a reason to fight beyond supporting Luffy.
- He saved Hiyori and bonded with her.
- Hiyori is Oden's daughter and appears to be a secondary arc princess. She was the one who contextualised the suffering of the people of Ebisu town at the hands of Orochi for Zoro, explaining to him the curse of SMILE.
- She cried into his arms and expressed a desire to kill Orochi with his own hands.
- She also bequeathed Enma to him.
- He attacked Orochi.
- Kyoshiro blocked his attack on Orochi, leading to a clash between Zoro and Kyoshiro. Orochi doesn't appear to be a fighter in his own right (he was helpless before Kyoshiro's attack), so if Zoro's vendetta on Orochi comes to fruition, it would involve defeating whoever is protecting Orochi.
- He swore not to forgive Orochi and to avenge Yasuie.
- He received Oden's sword Enma.
- Hitetsu also suggested that Zoro may surpass Oden with Enma by blackening the blade, a feat Oden was unable to accomplish.
Wano appears to be for Zoro what WCI has been for Sanji, and he's set up to take a very prominent role in the arc. Even in the recent chapters with Kidd's reappearance, Zoro has not looked at all inferior to him and still features quite heavily. I would wager that Zoro would have the second most prominent role from the alliance's side (with Kidd being third). It would be very surprising if Marco was to usurp Zoro's role in this arc.
The Case Against
There is really only one argument that I find credible regarding Zoro not fighting King, and that is that he might fight Kaido instead. The case for Zoro fighting King relies heavily on King being Kaido's strongest subordinate (with him being a swordsman and possessing fire abilities being mere cherries on the top). If Zoro instead fights the arc antagonist then there would be no cause for him to fight the strongest subordinate. In fact, in the one arc where Zoro participated in the defeat of the arc antagonist (Romance Dawn), he did not defeat the antagonist's strongest subordinate (a caveat would be that Morgan had no strongest subordinate). Regardless, if Zoro is fighting the antagonist, that's already indication that we are in violation of the normal formula (unless Zoro loses (as he did against Buggy, Enel and Lucci)).
If Zoro does fight Kaido, the main reason for him to fight King disappears. The question now becomes: "how likely is it that Zoro will fight Kaido".
Well, Zoro's prominence in this arc suggests he would. Kidd (and perhaps Law) may assist Luffy in beating Kaido. If Zoro doesn't contribute to Kaido's defeat, then they may in fact outshine him (which is apriori quite unlikely, given his panel time and relevance so far). One could also say that Zoro normally fights the antagonist's strongest subordinate, so perhaps in his most important arc (his WCI analogue) he may fight the antagonist instead? It sounds plausible, but I'm not that convinced yet.
Furthermore, Zoro referenced fighting Kaido in 980:
Zoro has also been set up to slay an Eastern Dragon this arc, and Kaido is the only one who fits.
There is an article on dragons, from One Piece Magazine Volume 5:
Here is the relevant quote:
The article further provides a description of Eastern Dragons with a picture of Kaido:
I'm not saying Zoro is going to deal the final blow on Kaido, but if he's going to slay a Dragon, then so far all fingers point towards that Dragon being Kaido (and not King like some suggested).
However, if King is present when they encounter Kaido and someone has to stop to take him on, it could still be Zoro. All in all, I think there's not yet enough to be confident that Zoro would contribute to Kaido's defeat (I don't give it up to a 50% chance of happening). I think Zoro is still more likely to fight King than Kaido.
It is possible that Zoro fights both King and Kaido (if Zoro fights Kaido, it's likely to be part of a group fight). However, I think this is quite unlikely. My priors for Zoro hogging that much action/panel time are pretty low. I would admit that he has gotten his fair share of fights so far:
It is already the case that Zoro has gotten more fights than normal this arc, so the chances of him fighting King and Kaido should already be higher than the reference class priors. I think it'll still be low though.
If Zoro does fight Kaido, the main reason for him to fight King disappears. The question now becomes: "how likely is it that Zoro will fight Kaido".
Well, Zoro's prominence in this arc suggests he would. Kidd (and perhaps Law) may assist Luffy in beating Kaido. If Zoro doesn't contribute to Kaido's defeat, then they may in fact outshine him (which is apriori quite unlikely, given his panel time and relevance so far). One could also say that Zoro normally fights the antagonist's strongest subordinate, so perhaps in his most important arc (his WCI analogue) he may fight the antagonist instead? It sounds plausible, but I'm not that convinced yet.
Furthermore, Zoro referenced fighting Kaido in 980:
Zoro has also been set up to slay an Eastern Dragon this arc, and Kaido is the only one who fits.
There is an article on dragons, from One Piece Magazine Volume 5:
Here is the relevant quote:
The article further provides a description of Eastern Dragons with a picture of Kaido:
I'm not saying Zoro is going to deal the final blow on Kaido, but if he's going to slay a Dragon, then so far all fingers point towards that Dragon being Kaido (and not King like some suggested).
However, if King is present when they encounter Kaido and someone has to stop to take him on, it could still be Zoro. All in all, I think there's not yet enough to be confident that Zoro would contribute to Kaido's defeat (I don't give it up to a 50% chance of happening). I think Zoro is still more likely to fight King than Kaido.
It is possible that Zoro fights both King and Kaido (if Zoro fights Kaido, it's likely to be part of a group fight). However, I think this is quite unlikely. My priors for Zoro hogging that much action/panel time are pretty low. I would admit that he has gotten his fair share of fights so far:
- He fought Hawkins.
- Otsuru mentioned that they (Luffy and Zoro) defeated him.
- He fought Gyukimaru (twice).
- He fought Killer.
- He clashed with Kyoshiro.
- He fought the Oniwabanshu ninja.
- He faced Apoo.
- He has been fighting Gifters and Headliners in the last two chapters.
It is already the case that Zoro has gotten more fights than normal this arc, so the chances of him fighting King and Kaido should already be higher than the reference class priors. I think it'll still be low though.
Marco
The Case For
The Case Against
As far as I'm aware, there is really only one strong argument in Marco's favour, and that is the heavy parallels that Oda has drawn between Marco and King.
In addition to the above parallels, there have been direct scenes that parallel them.
Spurned Recruitment Offers
Shanks tried to recruit Marco and Marco turned him down:
Big Mom tried to recruit King and King turned her down:
Kicked Big Mom's Ship
King kicked Big Mom's ship at the waterfall in order to prevent the Big Mom Pirates from entering Wano:
Marco kicked Big Mom's ship at the waterfall in order to prevent the Big Mom Pirates from entering Wano:
The parallels have been a bit gratuitous, so it would be a bit surprising if nothing comes of it. Even if Marco doesn't defeat King, I think it's likely they clash.
- Both of them are the strongest subordinates of their captains.
- Their captains being the World's Strongest Man and World's Strongest Creature respectively.
- Both of them are flying zoans.
- Both of them have fire abilities.
- King possesses destructive fire powers.
- Marco's flames are regenerative.
In addition to the above parallels, there have been direct scenes that parallel them.
Spurned Recruitment Offers
Shanks tried to recruit Marco and Marco turned him down:
Big Mom tried to recruit King and King turned her down:
Kicked Big Mom's Ship
King kicked Big Mom's ship at the waterfall in order to prevent the Big Mom Pirates from entering Wano:
Marco kicked Big Mom's ship at the waterfall in order to prevent the Big Mom Pirates from entering Wano:
The parallels have been a bit gratuitous, so it would be a bit surprising if nothing comes of it. Even if Marco doesn't defeat King, I think it's likely they clash.
The Case Against
Similarly, there is one major argument against Marco facing King; he does emotional investment or deep story connection to Wano. He is not invested in the people of Wano, he has no relation to the affliction that Orochi and Kaido have inflicted on them. Unlike the Supernova, he hasn't been adversely affected by Kaido either. He has no vendetta to execute. He literally just showed up now, it would be a little weird for him to be so important to Kaido's downfall as to defeat his strongest subordinate. His presence in Wano is similar to Sabo's in Dressrosa (a powerful ally, but nonetheless disconnected from the affliction of the people). Sabo didn't partake in Doflamingo's defeat, but instead faced off against alternative antagonists (Issho and Burgess). If we extrapolate from Sabo, Marco might be used to stall the Big Mom Pirates (or maybe Big Mom herself) or a Marine force.
Just as Oda did not devote that many panels to Sabo in Dressrosa, he may not cover Marco's Wano fights in depth. If Marco indeed faces King, it'll suggest that the fight wouldn't be covered in that much detail. On priors, we wouldn't expect Oda to largely off panel the defeat of Kaido's strongest subordinate.
If you consider the Sabo a suitable reference class member, then Marco defeating King looks unlikely.
The counter to the above (thanks @Bogard) would be that Marco actually does have emotional investment in Wano:
Marco has much more involvement in the events of Wano than Sabo did with Dressrosa. He's not just a strong ally, and actually has a connection to the people and their plight. Sabo may not be a suitable reference class member to try and predict Marco's role.
I found the above counter quite persuasive, and it caused me to revise upwards my estimate of Marco's prominence this arc, and the chances that he faces King.
Just as Oda did not devote that many panels to Sabo in Dressrosa, he may not cover Marco's Wano fights in depth. If Marco indeed faces King, it'll suggest that the fight wouldn't be covered in that much detail. On priors, we wouldn't expect Oda to largely off panel the defeat of Kaido's strongest subordinate.
If you consider the Sabo a suitable reference class member, then Marco defeating King looks unlikely.
The counter to the above (thanks @Bogard) would be that Marco actually does have emotional investment in Wano:
- He visted the country in the past as a teenager.
- He bonded with Oden and was his crewmate.
- Kaido killed Oden.
- He bonded with Izo.
- Izo was one of Oden's retainers and may have been included in Toki's prophecy.
Marco has much more involvement in the events of Wano than Sabo did with Dressrosa. He's not just a strong ally, and actually has a connection to the people and their plight. Sabo may not be a suitable reference class member to try and predict Marco's role.
I found the above counter quite persuasive, and it caused me to revise upwards my estimate of Marco's prominence this arc, and the chances that he faces King.
Conclusion
I think I currently favour Zoro as the one to defeat King, but it's not a conclusion that I'm all that confident in. I'll continue to update as we get more information, in particular, if I update towards Zoro being part of Kaido's defeat, I would update away from Zoro defeating King (not proportional updates, the two events are not mutually exclusive).
I listed some other characters that might defeat King (even though I think their chances are really unlikely), I'm aware of folks that have been advocating for Sanji vs King, and a Scabbard or Supernova are the other categories with any plausibility.
What do you guys think?
I listed some other characters that might defeat King (even though I think their chances are really unlikely), I'm aware of folks that have been advocating for Sanji vs King, and a Scabbard or Supernova are the other categories with any plausibility.
What do you guys think?
@Kejon
@Owl Ki
@kurwa
@Veljko2000
@Sade
@Patryipe
@SmokedOut
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@ShinmenTakezo
@Zowo
@Master OF Haki
@Exodia.
@comrade
@Light D Lamperouge
@Admiral Lee Hung
@Kiwipom
@Haoshoku
@Monkey D Theories
@Benn beck
@Luffy is the mc
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Dragomir
@Luslec
@playa4321
@Vonal
@Monet
@SHIHI
@Elcadar
@Emperor Nami
@KageyamaShoyo
@ZenZu
@Lucas
@Fukki
@Jo_Ndule
@Hanzo hattori
@RayanOO
@TheAncientCenturion
@Murilo
@Afroking
@Rivaille
@Van
@MarineHQ62
@Cinera
@Artorias
@Don DaSlayer
@Bittersteel
@Reddot4
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@Xione
@Zoro D Goat
@critical mindset
@BigChungus2018
@Bogard
@Veku
@Sentinel
@silverfire
@Gol D. Roger
@Zenos7
@KiriNigiri
@HeroesNZ
@Garp the Fist
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@BossYimz
@Yo Tan Wa
@worst pirate
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@ShishioIsBack
@Robin swan
@Yo Tan Wa
@OmegaPsyche
@Topi Jerami
@Shiroyru
If you want to be added or removed from my tags list, just let me know.
@Owl Ki
@kurwa
@Veljko2000
@Sade
@Patryipe
@SmokedOut
@K!NG HARA$H!MA
@ShinmenTakezo
@Zowo
@Master OF Haki
@Exodia.
@comrade
@Light D Lamperouge
@Admiral Lee Hung
@Kiwipom
@Haoshoku
@Monkey D Theories
@Benn beck
@Luffy is the mc
@Rosella.Fiamingo
@Dragomir
@Luslec
@playa4321
@Vonal
@Monet
@SHIHI
@Elcadar
@Emperor Nami
@KageyamaShoyo
@ZenZu
@Lucas
@Fukki
@Jo_Ndule
@Hanzo hattori
@RayanOO
@TheAncientCenturion
@Murilo
@Afroking
@Rivaille
@Van
@MarineHQ62
@Cinera
@Artorias
@Don DaSlayer
@Bittersteel
@Reddot4
@Starbound Beast D. Draig
@Xione
@Zoro D Goat
@critical mindset
@BigChungus2018
@Bogard
@Veku
@Sentinel
@silverfire
@Gol D. Roger
@Zenos7
@KiriNigiri
@HeroesNZ
@Garp the Fist
@Nidai_Kitetsu
@BossYimz
@Yo Tan Wa
@worst pirate
@Usopp Haoshoku Haki
@Van
@ShishioIsBack
@Robin swan
@Yo Tan Wa
@OmegaPsyche
@Topi Jerami
@Shiroyru
If you want to be added or removed from my tags list, just let me know.
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